1902 low tide penny

[RICHARD 0]

Just bought this penny on E.Bay as a buy it now for 33.00 pounds.

Not sure the dealer had spotted it was a low tide.

Is there any signifigance in the number of beads below the date as I now have three of these coins and they have between

11 and 12.

Thanks Richard

[muygrandeoso 0]

Just bought this penny on E.Bay as a buy it now for 33.00 pounds.

Not sure the dealer had spotted it was a low tide.

Is there any signifigance in the number of beads below the date as I now have three of these coins and they have between

11 and 12.

Thanks Richard

To my eye there are at least two date variation for the low tide 1902 with thick and thin numbers, with the biggest difference in the 1 and with the "tail" of the two pointing to a different spot on the teeth...I admit that the differences are small

[DaveG38 403]

Dear muygrandeoso,

On another thread on this forum, you may have seen that I am currently putting a book together about 20th Century varieties. The one you mention here is a new one to me and I wonder if you would be willing to allow me to use your photographs in my book - with due thanks and acknowledgments of course.

DaveG38

[muygrandeoso 0]

Dear muygrandeoso,

On another thread on this forum, you may have seen that I am currently putting a book together about 20th Century varieties. The one you mention here is a new one to me and I wonder if you would be willing to allow me to use your photographs in my book - with due thanks and acknowledgments of course.

DaveG38

Hi Dave,

You are welcome to use the images as you see fit.

Chris

[Gary D 76]

I'm always interested in new varieties but after studying both pictures side by side I rely can't see enough difference to make me think there is a deliberate difference. On one of them the numerals look a bit heavier but the spacing of the numbers look identical. I would suggest anything of less than half a pitch is just a normal tolerancing between dies.

Here is the 3 1907 varieties, close 7, normal 7 and wide 7 as an example

Gary

[Bronze & Copper Collector 411]

I'm always interested in new varieties but after studying both pictures side by side I rely can't see enough difference to make me think there is a deliberate difference. On one of them the numerals look a bit heavier but the spacing of the numbers look identical. I would suggest anything of less than half a pitch is just a normal tolerancing between dies.

Here is the 3 1907 varieties, close 7, normal 7 and wide 7 as an example

Gary

Actually, I have 4 different 1907 spacings in my supplemental collection......... as acknowledged on Michael Gouby's website.....

Type Aa - even date spacing (7 to bead)

Type Ab - even date spacing (7 to right of bead)

Type B - 7 closer to 0 (left of bead)

Type C - 7 away from 0 (7 to gap)

Edited April 27, 2008 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[Gary D 76]

I'm always interested in new varieties but after studying both pictures side by side I rely can't see enough difference to make me think there is a deliberate difference. On one of them the numerals look a bit heavier but the spacing of the numbers look identical. I would suggest anything of less than half a pitch is just a normal tolerancing between dies.

Here is the 3 1907 varieties, close 7, normal 7 and wide 7 as an example

Gary

Actually, I have 4 different 1907 spacings in my supplemental collection......... as acknowledged on Michael Gouby's website.....

Type Aa - even date spacing (7 to bead)

Type Ab - even date spacing (7 to right of bead)

Type B - 7 closer to 0 (left of bead)

Type C - 7 away from 0 (7 to gap)

I'll put my hands up, you caught me out there Gary. lol. Try as I may I could not get a decent picture of my Ab so didn't include it. Re Michael's website I believe he has got the descriptions wrong. Type Aa-even date spacing should be 7 to gap and 7 away should be to tooth, also 7 closer to tooth I would suggest to be to tooth.

Edited April 27, 2008 by Gary D

[muygrandeoso 0]

Hello,

Two different, slightly better images. I agree that these differences are small, and I do not claim that they are important, just that they are slightly different. I leave it to smarter folks than I to decide what they mean.

[AardHawk 73]

Sorry to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, but all you fellas are way off with your number of varieties. According to my september 1976 copy of Coin monthly in an authoritist artical by A.R.Alexander, 'Further Varieties of the 1902 Penny' there are in fact two distinct varieties of high tide penny and thirteen low tide date varieties.

A.R.Alexander in collaberation with A.M.Lisk went on to produce a series of articles during 1977 on modern british pennies detailing every variety in the series from 1895 to 1967. Freeman didn't come close.

[DaveG38 403]

Hi AardHawk,

Can you point me to a definitive source for these articles please?

DaveG38

[Gary D 76]

Hi AardHawk,

Can you point me to a definitive source for these articles please?

DaveG38

I think several of us would be very interested to see this list

Edited May 1, 2008 by Gary D

[AardHawk 73]

I think several of us would be very interested to see this list

Ok I'll have a go at summerising the articles.

The thirteen 1902 Low tide minor varieties are all date varieties and all concern the shape and placement of each of the 9, 0 & 2 date characters.

The Noughts are all of the same shape but vary in their placement.

There are two distinct twos. The 'thick two' which has a thick horizontal stroke and its serif

is rather square cut. The 'thin two' has a more slender horizontal base stroke and a more rouned serif. The thin two serif also points further to the right.

The low tide nine is considered to be a 'thick nine' and comes in three distinct stages of wear. that is the loop of the nine is open, closing or closed.The high tide nine is described as a 'thin nine'.

When describing the placement of the characters the schema that is used, boarder tooth one is that which is directly beneath the figure one and the higher numbered boarder teeth are to its right when

viewed from outside the coin.

V.R.Court in another article estimated the mintage of LT pennies to be 1,212,600. The right hand figure

is the estimated mintage of each variety.

Variety type of 9. tooth over which Shape of 2. Knee of 2 position. Variety minbtage.

0 centered.

1 Open Right of 7 Thick 10 90,000

2 O R7 Tk 10 45,000

3 O R7 Tk L10 180,000

4 O R7 Thin 9/10 135,000

5 O 7/8 Tk L10 135,000

6 O 7/8 Tk 10 45,000

7 O 7/8 Tk R10 45,000

8 O 7/8 Tn R10 180,000

9 O L8 Tn 10/11 45,000

10 Closing 7/8 Tn 10 180,000

11 Cg 7/8 Tk 10 45,000

12 Cg 7/8 Tk L10 45,000

13 Closed R7 Tk 9/10 45,000

High tide pennies,

14 Closed 7/8 Tn R10

15 Closed 7/8 Tk R10

DaveG38, check my previous reply. I have already listed the source. I understand that you want to produce new book on varieties, I do however have misgivings, telling you where you can find this information. All of this work and research was carried out by enthusiastic amateurs and in many cases they were paid very little for publication of their work. Much of the information in these magazines may still be owned by the publishers. I trust that if you write your book you will fully ackowledge these people and their contribution. A new book on varieties is long overdue. One that includes high definition photographs and detailed line drawings would be most welcome.

[AardHawk 73]

Variety type of 9. tooth over which Shape of 2. Knee of 2 position. Variety minbtage.

0 centered.

Should read 'Variety, type of 9, tooth over which 0 centered, Shape of 2, Knee of 2 position, mintage'

The table didnt come out quite as intended. If you copy it into note pat you may be able to tweek some sense out of it.

[Peter 615]

I bought a load of old coin mags (late 60's to early 80's) and they are full of information on varieties,surveys etc.

I even have the edition when the 1915 no gap in BRITT farthing is 1st mentioned.

I started working my way through the magazines and inserting post its on interesting articals with a veiw of photocopying and binding these together.

There is a lot of stuff worthy of publishing....but 13 varieties of a 1902 1d ......mmmmm

[Gary D 76]

There is a lot of stuff worthy of publishing....but 13 varieties of a 1902 1d ......mmmmm

Yes although I consided myself a collector of varieties I wonder if a line should be draw between pointing which was done to identify dies to the mint workers and just plain natural variations in the die production process.

[AardHawk 73]

There is a lot of stuff worthy of publishing....but 13 varieties of a 1902 1d ......mmmmm

Yes although I consided myself a collector of varieties I wonder if a line should be draw between pointing which was done to identify dies to the mint workers and just plain natural variations in the die production process.

As a result of the article I quoted Michael Freeman responded, that he had attempted to list all date variations on Victorian pennies but had given up as they were just too numerus as the practice in those days was to enter the date numbers by hand onto each working die and that he considered that variations of this type were of little interest. The author of the article responded that, that may well be the case and that date varieties were common among edwardian pennies but less so in later coinage and that at the time, when these coins were in circulation and commonly available that it gave collectors a point of interest in an otherwise varietyless series of coins.

I concur with the latter view as date varieties on modern coins are few and far between, hence the great interest in the seven date varieties of the 1957 calm sea halfpenny or the open and closed 9 varieties of the 1955 halfpenny. They are certainly more obvious than the three varieties of the 1958 halfpenny or various recut flags and other features of the 1967 half penny of the recut visor on several of the 1960's pennies. I would think that being aware that these varieties exist is of interest, even if one dosnt specifically collect them or consider them to be of any particular value. As far as I am concerned, I dont think they are worth paying a premium for.

A final point is that when all these original articles were being written in the sixties and seventies, these coins were still in, or had, very recently been in circulation. Prehaps this points the way that current day coin collection should really be going. That is the study of current decimal coinage, of which there are many interesting varieties to be found in your change, such as the two distinct reverses to the 1980 2p, namely the 'Left Leg of N in PENCE to bb' and 'Left Leg of N in PENCE to sp'.

[DaveG38 403]

Aardhawk,

You're posts are depressing me!!! For my book I thought I had gone through a fair number of sources to extract quite a large number of varieties with descriptors so that the different types could be reconciled. Now I find that there are a large number of additional minor varieties which will take a hell of a lot of tracking down to describe, but will also be difficult to find examples of to photograph. My head hurts - help!!

[Red Riley 2]

Aardhawk,

You're posts are depressing me!!! For my book I thought I had gone through a fair number of sources to extract quite a large number of varieties with descriptors so that the different types could be reconciled. Now I find that there are a large number of additional minor varieties which will take a hell of a lot of tracking down to describe, but will also be difficult to find examples of to photograph. My head hurts - help!!

I will state here and now that almost infinite minute variety just doesn't float my boat. Identifying 13 sub-varieties of a coin which is in itself a variety makes me think that the author badly needs to get a life. Don't despair Dave, just be selective about what you choose and ask yourself the question, 'will this variety be worth more to the average collector?'. If the answer is no, then forget it. For a start, you can throw out anything resulting from die wear - if you take that to its logical conclusion, with sophisticated enough optical equipment, every coin is in a variety of its own. It just depends where you draw the line and a sensible man would draw it way before 13 varieties of 1902 LT penny!

Somewhere in Michael Gouby's book 'The British Penny 1860-1970', he states that there are two 'varities' of one coin identified solely by an 'I' or a '9' pointing to either a tooth or a gap, but in his mind that just isn't enough to classify it as a separate variety and he has therefore chosen to ignore it. Michael is heavily into varieties and this makes it clear that he at least knows where to stop. All you need to do, is to think through a sensible definition of a variety and take it from there.

[DaveG38 403]

Thanks Red Riley,

Seeing the posts in this topic, I was beginning to get rather disheartened by the apparent enormity of this task. I agree with you that I will need to draw a line somewhere - for me its looking like the main varieties identified by most of the well known authors in numismatics and not the esoteric minor types. However, I can see an argument that says all types should be put in for completeness. For now I am going to press on as I have been.

Cheers

DaveG38