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I thought it worth reviving this one to show another 1698 halfpenny recently acquired. As has been previously mentioned here, these are very difficult to find, particularly in decent grades, having been struck for three months only. It pays to keep one's eyes peeled…

I think all these alterations add to the history. A plug means someone thought it interesting enough to use as a medallion or touch piece, then someone later felt it was interesting enough to repair. Engravings are often love tokens or claims to ownership. A split or fragment means it has been in the ground for some time. I think that is why I find perfect proof coins a bit dull.

I brought mine for £63; 8 years ago.

Hi all! I’ve been collecting on and off for a few years but only recently decided to try and take it up seriously. Came across this Henry VII plugged groat at a fair which after some deliberation I decided to buy as apart from the plug I thought was a really nice example but just wondering what people’s views are on plugged coins generally - do other collectors avoid them altogether and do they hold any value? I thought the price was reasonable given the plug but wonder what others views are. Would others buy a plugged coin to fill a gap or go for a lower grade, non-damaged, coin instead? Thanks!

Not the best of pictures but here's the edge. It reads * SERJEANT WILLIAM GRANT , 1ST BAT 92ND HIGHLANDERS. I bought it online from a dealer in Glasgow who had omitted the edge details in the description of sale. I was a bit miffed at first until i did some research. He is Roll number 51 on the Waterloo medal database. He also composed a poem about the battle that was on a manuscript that was sold by Noonans in September 2006 (lot 1100)

some that I have picked up ages ago......

I guess most "serious" collectors would avoid plugged coins, or any other damage. But if that is the only way you can fill a gap within budget, then go for it! I have a number of damaged coins in my collection - some with engravings in the field, some ex-mount, some hammered even missing fragments, but they will fill the gaps until and unless I can afford to replace them with something better. Here, for example, is my William I penny. I would love to have one without the missing chunk, but until one comes along at a price I am happy with, it will stay with me. Your Henry VII, by the way, is a lovely example apart from the plug.

Dont know if this is any interest to anyone. Although i have posted in pennies, it also covers other bronze. These were amendments freeman made after his first bronze book, showing some that he had estimated to be less rare than he originally thought or at the time of print didnt know existed, such as the 1860 Halfpenny mule, 1870 Dot penny etc.

Get in quick for this one: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/187859014593?itmmeta=01KCWD3RSPGS13XT0BRGS6G0P9&hash=item2bbd4513c1:g:jDsAAeSwnv1pRbEi&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA4FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1fvsd0HwSoi3YVy3fEVKmzOU8EzcZuz8p%2FWljDDMPKaHkCqMoBVOUyU20uY%2Fk16edJXx5F6RDVCUVj8YBpZ0bcKH4TvJgCIt53fO1P%2BB7p7IPC3zyoGCpItoclwOlycCLt6syNuMKQL398SvgN%2FRbMQ5CT6ipDKzZzuKktdX4sH%2B8qBURpxXSMEif7ItzhiHxh%2FixUe1Ps9LJIKs31ia1sUwLyxkzevXuUrmv51nI5KQUj9qzfXRVg2jy%2BvtCqCJgBBXqOe%2Bv5PwAVO1oJdvZ50|tkp%3ABk9SR4aNj43nZg

The manuscript of the poem he wrote was sold at Noonans. https://www.noonans.co.uk/archive/lot-archive/results/131481/

It was the basis of the updates, subject to his future decisions. He later removed the milled penny (that I recently sold) from the catalog after receiving an assessment from the Royal Mint that it was a post mint alteration. Just as his 1970 edition was an extension of his several updated versions of his penny studies expanded to include half pennies, farthings, patterns, trials, etc. There are ALWAYS corrections, updates, modifications, etc to a work of this magnitude. There have been many new discoveries to add to Peck, Braman, Freeman, etc. No guide/catalog is a final authority, it merely contains information known at the time. They grow, mature, learn, make adjustments and corrections, expand as a living being.

Maybe it's me, but it's only a short time ago that members were talking of the lack of activity on the forum, as if it was stagnating, and now we have a pile of new members turn up recently.....good to see....

I am pleased to discover how scarce the Farthing is too! I have this one in my collection. No idea when or where I picked it up.

This is the Nicholson example, was later in the Pywell-Phillips Spink sale Oct 2018.

Agreed. It is the Anchor mm which is class IIId in the Spink guide. Auction houses are not always correct with their identifications. When i was researching my type IIIa groat i was looking at old sales. I was frequently finding type IIa coins listed as type IIIa & IIIb , the Pansy mintmark was also frequently mistaken for the Cinquefoil mintmark. Edit added information. On the older documents on groats of Henry VII type IIId did not exist. It jumped from IIIc to IV. Its possible the auction has just used the old classification where type IIId was included as IIIc. I am not sure when they created the type IIId class but on older 1960s documents it was not present. That could also be the reason it was listed as IIIc.

Aha... re discovered these....convict coins was mention some years back I believe one is George II 1727-1760 the coin is engraved 1749....the other engraved but unable to decipher any details..... anyone able to offer up more details would be most welcome....

That’s stunning, @Ukstu I’ll try and look the thread out @Sword it was in a conversation about Maundy money, as you guessed.

I'll also take plugged/edge loss etc hammered coins, especially if it makes them affordable (eg my Richard III in the name of Edward IV/V groat), I try to avoid actual holes and coins that have been broken and repaired unless extremely difficult to get otherwise (eg my Matilda 1d). I woudn't take a milled coin with any of these defects, although I've got a couple that have been cleaned/polished.

I don't tend to buy them now but when i first started collecting i bought holed / plugged coins. I have a milled sixpence of Elizabeth I that would of been way out my budget at the time if it wasn't for the plug in it. Don't mind counterstamped stuff so much as it's an interesting field that you can research sometimes. I picked up a cartwheel penny last year that had an edge engraving in the same style as the waterloo medal. When i researched the name on it i found out the guy had actually been at Waterloo. I only paid £10 for it as well so wasn't expensive.

No sorry but they are just scrap. The best thing to do with any Bronze coins post 1901 is to buy the David Groom book " British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties ". Its only about £10-£15 posted on Amazon and will help you get familiar with any varieties for Bronze Pennies, Halfpennies and Farthings. There is a seperate one for silver coins also, should you be interested in those.

I suspect so, and while close I don’t think it’s an actual die match with H’s. Potentially a very rare coin, especially as the one illustrated is the best Dave Greenhalgh could find! Jerry

Hi Stu, here is the pic. Very similar crown. Jerry

That very distinctive ‘stalked’ central fleur looks pretty much identical to the illustration of the ‘Edward III Pre Treaty Series E York Episcopal’ Penny on page 70 of ‘The Galata Guide to Mediaeval Pennies Part 1’ though I cannot see a quatrefoil after ‘ANGLIE’ on H’s specimen. It is an interesting coin, and I think Dave Greenhalgh is the man to give an opinion here, if anyone is a contact. Jerry

wow, the penny has been Identified to be .......😲👍 Edward III, York. Quatrefoil in centre of reverse, CIVI TAS EBO RACI

The article mentions "Norman" and "dates to just after the Battle of Hastings" so I'd have thought more likely William I. The few I can read seem to bear the legend +PILLEM, which would indicate that to be the case.

That's not a bad price to be honest. All the Charles III sets seem to be expensive. I'm not sure there's much better available in the UK to be honest. I picked up one for £46 last month, that's the cheapest I could find.

You can view Dalton & Hamer's book online: https://www.scribd.com/document/206664745/The-provincial-token-coinage-of-the-18th-century-illustrated-by-R-Dalton-and-S-H-Hamer

I was going to reply to all these but too many to do - I'll give you the task of finding a D&H. Life is so much simpler with one as all the varieties are illustrated. Punctuation, present or missing is important, as is the position of the legend relative to itself or other features as this will determine the die(s) used and hence the variety. For this piece: Milled edge will be D&H 351 - common. 351a edge reads 'AN ASYLUM .......NATIONS' - Rare 351b edge 'BIRMINGHAM OR SWANSEA' - Very Rare. 351c edge 'PAYABLE AT LONDON LIVERPOOL OR BRISTOL.' - Rare. And for any 19th century tokens you might acquire, a good reference you will find is 19the Century Token Coinage, by W J Davis. Sorry, I will lose the will to live if I do many more. I don't have any copies of either in stock, but do have the references in an emergency and if all else fails will help. Every collector added to the list of known people in a certain field helps.

Somehow I don't think I'll even leave a space in my "Shillings from 1702 - 1970" binder for that one! 🤣

I need to spend a penny!!!!!!!!! 🤣

Hello all. I recently purchased this Henry VII groat very cheaply in auction. It was listed as class IIIc, which I believe to be incorrect. The mintmark is quite clearly an anchor (inverted on obv., upright on rev.) which could only mean then that it is a class IIId (S.2199A). This difference is very slight so I wanted to get a second opinion to make sure I didn't miss or overlook anything. Thanks for any help. Merry Christmas.

Well you know what they say , QUALITY ALWAYS SELLS !

I absolutely love this! If you were ever able to bring this man’s life any more alive, do start a thread, I’d follow it like a novel. What a story, and so intimately connected through that coin!

Or bone meal fertilizer. I think he was okay. I found this out about him.. William Grant fought as a Sergeant in Captain John Warren’s company of the 92nd Highlanders at Waterloo. He was shortly afterwards promoted to Sergeant-Major and, on 5 November 1819, he was appointed Adjutant with the rank of Ensign. He did not live to claim a Peninsula Medal. I'd probably need a paid Ancestry account to get any more information. Not sure what year they started awarding peninsula medals .

Found it

That's fascinating. Well done for finding it out and keeping the story alive. This is the sort of item I would buy; but for the story and history rather than as a coin.

Really interesting - I've added it to my rare penny site with a question mark.

I see London Coins sold this piece below a decade or so ago, concluding it was a doctored piece (is it???) with the H presumably added post-mint. Maybe this is the one Freeman saw and then had second thoughts? Did any forum member buy it, perhaps? Seemed a fair price for such a curio!

OK, so the best I can do with this is say there were Edward III pennies from the Treaty/Post Treaty period bearing the obverse legend you have on your coin. However, given that the lettering, bust, etc. is so crude in its execution, I feel it can only leave you with something continental or perhaps a contemporary counterfeit…UNLESS, of course, it’s something that’s been struck from local York dies? Looking for Edward III pennies that were struck from local dies, is one I’ll leave to you. I did however, in a brief search, find a Richard II penny struck from Local York dies*, and I feel there are some similarities, so not all is lost. It might also be worth taking a really close look, under magnification, at the first 3 letters of the kings name, too. *taken from a dealer’s website, who just happens to be a member on here Historic Coinage

BTW, I did go get a bigger binder and am waiting on a 1663 and a 1668 shillings. My wallet hates you Paddy. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I'll throw one in a shoe box with my 1933 and 1954 pennies

This is a clear picture of what i believe to be a LARGE 3 i had recently.

I think you are there or thereabouts. There is definitely an inner circle both sides, and a CIVITAS LONDON reverse. The obverse Iegend is probably EDWARDVS REX but there is too little face/crown detail to be much more specific - certainly North class 10 or later, and likely Edward II. The North classification has been substantially re-written and subdivided in the Withers (Galata) publications which are highly recommended. Jerry

Good info! I might just do that, there are some fun things with W&M and the like too. Thanks!

That should do you fine. Unlike Pennies, I don't think there are that many single denomination collectors for shillings. By the way, I would extend your range just a little, to the start of the milled shillings in 1662 (barring the very scarce Cromwell issues in the 1650s). Quite a few of the 17th century shillings are fairly reasonably priced and this gives you the opportunity to add a few more monarchs to the run. Shillings from 1696 and 1697 are fairly plentiful, as are some of the Charles II dates in the 1660s to 1680s.

I think that's what the last person had in mind when I sold a kg or so on ebay last time.

Just back from WA, the jacarandas are absolutely spectacular this time of year!

How much coin would, say, Elizabeth Tudor have given out as Maundy coinage, and how much of that coinage would’ve actually been handled by, or been in direct possession of, the queen? How would the ceremony have worked/happened? Would it have been mixed denominations, or just pennies? I’ve recently learned that pennies were given out as Maundy, would there be others? Many thanks in advance!