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My view is that such dots, seen on several of the Victorian copper pennies series, are not intentionally placed in these locations, but rather the result of a ‘foreign body’ like a piece of grit getting on to the die. The minting process then impresses into the die leaving a small dent, generally quite circular in shape but not always……….most things take a circular shape when hammered! I think that the resulting effect is often to leave a weak spot (no pun intended) on the die from which subsequent flawing can originate; I think this far more plausible than the dots being deliberately placed in these positions to prevent further cracking, and Brian has already confirmed that on his 1853 OT there is no additional flawing around his dot………...so the dot came first! I attach a further picture of an 1858 dot penny (undocumented) where one can more readily see flawing around the dot. Collectors may also be aware of an 1854PT penny with a dot in the field under the first I of VICTORIA, and also an 1859 penny with a dot near to the border teeth above the DEF colon……….these latter two coins under high magnification also show weak flawing around the dot. The 1854 and 1859 have now been categorised as varieties by CGS, although I am not too comfortable about that. Whilst an interesting feature, I do not think they are true varieties because created by fluke of minting process rather than being an intentional or erroneous action of a person.

I'm no expert and this may be a question that the true answer may never be "proven". If it is an identification mark, you would expect this to be added at the start of the dies life and therefore for more examples of the same date/spot to be known. It would also be human nature to put them in a logical position eg in the legend or at 12 o'clock 6 o'clock etc.If it is a random foreign body to blame, then this could presumably happen at any point in the life of the die, so some varieties should be a lot more common than others depending on how far through the life of the die the damage occurred. Also as the flan is much softer than the die is a foreign body more likely to embed itself into the coin rather than the die when struck?If it was an attempt to stop a die flaw / crack from becoming worse, then this is more likely to be towards the end of the dies life making examples fare scarcer. Is it also possible that the die could show a sign of failing and a remedy be applied before it would appear on coins struck explaining why Brian's coin has a dot but no sign of a flaw, but this also suggests the drilling or punching of the die, didn't stop the deteriorating further. Or maybe there could be another explanation?It would be interesting to see if these dots appear on all denominations in equal proportion to the number of coins minted. Trying to establish a time line of coins produced by the same die showing dot or no dot flaw or no flaw may help in identifying a reason but may be impossible to do. Is silver not the "shiny side" rather than the "dark side" Hopefully Brian, but silver collectors may be reading the title and passing over the thread mumbling under their breath about pesky penny collectors Ian..

Happy Birthday Matt. Hope you have a fantastic day and evening!

I have used it quite a few times. It saves loads of hassle when it comes to missing the post. You get a text to say it is at the local Argos and you simply pick it up at a time appropriate to you. No extra cost so win win.

Happy birthday from me too!

The results are in - and no rejects! Some very close / spot-on guesses Here's the grades assigned 1899 crown: CGS 70 finest known (dies 2E) 1707 halfcrown: CGS 25 1911 halfcrown: CGS 92 1911 florin: CGS 85 1902 florin: CGS 82 1736 shilling: CGS 40 (new variety M over M in M.B. on reverse) 1911 shilling: CGS 91 1674 sixpence CGS 50

Enjoy this evening

Yes, that's a bloody nice coin.

Hi Ian, I don’t confess to know much about silver so will need to leave that question for other members to answer; it would be interesting to hear some views. Whilst I have given 4 examples of dots on Copper pennies none of these is often seen. I think the same applies to Bronze Victorian pennies (my other main collection) where the famous 1897 dot penny, and now the 1875 canon ball penny are also seldom seen. Michael Gouby has said (page 92 of his book) that the dot on the 1897 penny was “originally thought to be an identification mark, which has since been discounted”. So, on Victorian pennies this feature seems to be rare, but present, on both Copper and Bronze even though they have different chemistry……...so perhaps it will be the same for silver…….but I have yet to go to ‘the dark side’!!

You may be correct, but I would expect that process to also create coins with indented dots when the crud was still between the flan and the die, do these exist, although I apreciate they would possibly be much scarcer? Also these dots seem to be more prevelent on copper rather than silver, or am I wrong? If they are and this is a random occurence would you not expect them to be on the same proportion of silver coins too? Ian..

I recently received an 1841 circulation penny with colon that I acquired during the last Spink auction. I think that this is the best looking 1841 circulation penny (with or without colon) that I've seen.