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Nice Pennies, I especially like the F-14. Thanks for posting.

Nice coins

Ok, thanks Bob. This has happened before and I'm at a loss as to why the images appear on my devices but no-one else's. Never mind - I'll post links and include my F74 as well Freeman 74 - 1874 "specimen" rev Freeman 74 - 1874 "specimen" obv Freeman 14 - 1860 LCW under foot Freeman 14 - 1860 LCW under foot obv Hopefully, this will work.

Benjamin Patrick is perhaps best known as the engraver of the Perry Barr Penny token issued by William Booth, the notorious forger who was hanged in 1812. Booth was charged and convicted for forgery of bank notes and coins (the Bank Dollar, 3/- and 1/6) issued by the Bank of England. However this is not Patrick’s only connection with forgery. In a case against the coiner William Henshall, who was transported in 1806 for counterfeiting the Bank Dollar, a Benjamin Patrick (of Phillip’s Salutation Public House in Snow Hill, Birmingham) is mentioned as engraver of counterfeit bank-note plates together with a relative(?) Washington Patrick. I was therefore hoping that the study of the die punches used for the penny token would shed some light on the matter. The original token is unfortunately quite rare and expensive, but thanks to Bente and Paul Withers (Galata) I now have a useful photo. Of Booths counterfeits we know the 1/6 since a hoard of these was discovered in 1956 about half a mile from Booths farm. The Birmingham Museum & Art Gallery also has a Bank Dollar which was found at the farm, only the 3/- remains unidentified. It is possible that Booth also made counterfeits of other coins such as the Third-Guinea, however only the above coins are mentioned in his court case. 1804 BANK DOLLAR Of the 41 counterfeit bank dollars I’ve seen so far; 20 have been cast or produced by transfer dies. The other 21 are milled from engraved dies and of these there are 3 different obverses and 5 reverses. The dies are obvious the work of two different engravers. The letter punches used for the counterfeit Bank Dollar found at Booths farm (below) are of type I. When the large letters of counterfeit I are compared with the large letters used for the Booth token there’s no mistake – the design is exactly the same! All evidence therefore point to Benjamin Patrick as the engraver of both token and counterfeit. The Booth dollar is known only with the same obverse-reverse combination. There is however another obverse combined with 3 different reverses engraved by Patrick. Obverse 1 – Nose to I of Gratia Obverse 2 – Nose to TI of Gratia, leaves of laurel wreath almost touching E of DEI, X of Rex very close to bust Reverse 1 – 8 of 1804 directly under 1st L of Dollar - 2nd S of Shillings points to L of England – N of Shillings points directly to 1st N of England Reverse 2 – 8 of 1804 directly under 1st L of Dollar - 2nd S of Shillings between GL of England Reverse 3 – 8 of 1804 to the right under 1st L of Dollar - 2nd S of Shillings between GL of England Reverse 4 – as reverse 1 but N of Shillings to the left under 1st N of England We know that William Henshall counterfeited the Bank Dollar but according to the article the dies was manufactured by himself – possible by some sort of transfer method? There are several counterfeit bank dollars which design are exactly the same as the genuine coins only the details are somewhat blurred like on a cast coin, perhaps some of these are the product of Henshall? Or perhaps Henshall coins are so scarce that I just haven’t seen any yet? I think the 2nd Patrick obverse, together with reverse 2-4, are likely to have been engraved at the same time as Booths (1810-11) since they are very similar in style. Henshall’s counterfeits were done in 1805 and if Patrick had been the engraver I would expect the dies to be of a somewhat different style. So for now the coiner using the 2nd obverse remains unknown. to be continued... References Peter Lane and Peter Fleig: William Henshall: Maker of NSW Holey Dollars and Dumps (Numismatic Association of Australia - NAAJ 15 2004) Paul and Bente Withers: British copper tokens 1811-1820 The trial at large of William Booth and his associates, George Scot, the three Yates's, John Barrows and Elizabeth Childlow for Forgery, Coining etc. at the Stafford summer assizes, 1812, before Mr. Justice Le Blanc. (Gower and Smart 1812)

Die crack shown in last photo.

I wondered whether any other member had ever attempted a study of the working dies of the very rare 1861 reverse F varieties, Freeman numbers F19, F24, F27 and F32. The reason for asking this question is that I recently purchased an F24 (pictures attached) because I noticed that the last numeral 1 was wider than I had ever seen before, and also tilted anti-clockwise……again something I hadn’t recalled seeing. With the benefit of Richard’s excellent websites I decided to examine the dates more closely, as far as was possible with the image quality of some of the coins. This exercise has led me to conclude that there are at least 4 different positions for the last 1, hence at least 4 different working dies. Also, apart from my latest purchase, all of the coins pictured on Richard’s websites seem to have the last numeral 1 tilted clockwise, to a greater or lesser extent. Perhaps another interesting find is that the two F24’s which are paired with the ‘missing top leaf’ obverse also look as though they may have been struck with the same reverse die as F32 Example 8, the last 1 been very tilted and low in line on all 3 coins…………..although this could I guess be coincidental. This reverse could, however, still have had plenty of life left in it as the obverse moved from Freeman 5 to 6, so I feel very plausible. Do other members have any thoughts or looked at this before? P.S. I have never seen an F19. Gouby 2009 says 1 known specimen in Fair grade, if anyone has pictures please could you share?

Nothing major, but lots of minor stuff. Dots on tridents and elsewhere, portcullis new pennies, the 1926 penny types, missing waves, 1903 open 3 minor types, now the 1918H penny etc. etc. Enough to justify a second edition in say a few years time. Plus I'd like to get some identifying photos of those varieties that I simply mention e.g. all the 1957 calm sea types, or the 1907 penny ones. Plenty to do, but I'm a bit too busy at the moment with other stuff.

Here is the F19 in Fair Alfnail.

Hi GaryD Brass 3D are a greatly overlooked denomination. They are a beautiful little coin with an interesting history. As far as I know there are 44 different variations of the Brass 3D but after finding out there are 60 variations of the Edward VII Pennie on this site yesterday when I had firmly believed there were on 26 variations. Are there more than 44 variations of the Brass 3D ? ? ? I would appreciate the opportunity to discuss Brass 3D's with you and I would also like a Brass 3D section if that could be arranged with the site controllers. Would if be possible to see your Brass 3D collections ? You can see mine on the CGS site under The Coinery and TC Coins. This is quite exciting as you are he only other Brass 3D collector I know. I look forward to hearing from you. Hi Guy, The 3d is only a small part of my collection but I do have an affinity with the often overlooked little sucker. I put a little pamplet together in the stile of Peck 10 years ago for my own interest, was it 10 years ago, doesn't seem possible. I recon the count is nearer 75 if you include the proof. The_Brass_3d_1936-1967.pdf