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It's been pulled!

Jester, my only advice would be to think very carefully about slabbing a bunch of sixpences that can be bought for the price of the slabbing process itself. Ask yourself what is your reason for slabbing the coins. Is it to test your understanding of the grading system, a kind of personal challenge, for investment purposes or because you just prefer to view your coins in slab form with the added peace of mind you can fondle them without the risk of damage? I'll help you out with one of those. In my humble opinion these relatively modern sixpences are quite common in high grades and have no future as an investment....now with that grenade where's my tin hat...i'm just off to hide behind the sofa ;-)

Any information on this coin would be much appreciated. A very nice Charles l double crown I have. I have been told that the reverse die is the same as number 200 in the famous Schneider collection but the obverse has the mintmark in a different place. Could this be an over mark ? Would this be quite a rare double crown with the overmarks and its condition ?

No, the obsession is with absolutes. Maybes are a definite no-no. They like to assign a number as it is quantifiable. That's why you don't have a draw in a game, which goes into overtime to force a result. Cricket poses something of a conundrum.

The Dassier medals were/are frequently copied and reissued. My favorite were by Sir Edward Thomason, in lead. I have one somewhere and will post it when found. Good basic reference: http://www.historicalartmedals.com/MEDAL%20WEB%20ENTRIES/BIOSKETCHES%20AND%20OTHER%20TEXT/SWITZERLAND/kings_and_queens_of_england.htm

Thanks. One of my best finds ?

That's as clear as a bell (sorry), so overmarks both sides. That narrows down the striking period a lot. Presumably to the weeks following the change of mark. You always need decent pictures to give a meaningful reply. (Those who just post a message saying 'I have a coin. What is it?' please take note.)

Actually I am even toying with the idea of slabbed coins for the simple reason NGC and PCGS have a habit of mis-identifying English coins or put it more simply they don't care. They are very old school and if it is a well known variety it will go on the ticket if it isn't or is a new variety your 50/50 weather they will record it. Which is a massive plus for UK slab buyers. I just bought an MS64 BN 1916 Penny NGC slabbed. It turns out the didn't identify it as a recessed ear even though it has the broken tooth after BRITT identifier. So you could call it a win win :). I am not against TPG's when I am buying just when submitting and I think that is probably the case for most

Keen for a sale!! Reported. ?

Back again! Either the previous buyers returned it or this crooks got a stockpile of them. https://www.m.ebay.co.uk/itm/INTERESTING-UNKNOWN-SILVER-COIN-TOKEN-READ-DESCRIPTION-/162721039056

Maybe it once was but I fear a long long long time ago http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/George-1921-Penny-UNC/192335028125

Which was my initial take on him calling it white metal. which was and has been used in many auctions not so much for coins but items of old silver without hallmarks or white gold etc . Termed white metal as opposed to base metal. But Again if I had seen the coin at the auction I never would of bid for it. As soon as i opened the package I saw straight away it was a jeckle. Auctioneers if they are going to go down this road of online sales then they must make it as transparent as they do for their land based auctions. My only safeguard is the auction house supplying me with a decent set of pictures rather like heritage does and a clear description of the coin or coins. At the moment catalogues are far too stacked with far away images and usually just one side. They cannot use the argument they don't have time to take pics for all of them because if they do not have the time they have no business selling them. After all they for the most part are our eyes and ears in online auctions. What was the most annoying aspect was his answers Rob. "I never said it was authentic I merely stated it was white metal. " Which clearly stated he knew full well it wasn't. Again I bought a lot unseen purely by the description of the auctioneer "Ex collection lot of Victorian pennies very useful lot " £100-£200 Box arrives with about 50 victorian pennies none graded higher than fair no key dates no varieties. £300 for a £10 box of toot. Unless someone had taken all the good coins out before posting them as I was an absentee bidder and there was no picture associated with the sale. London coin auctions consigned my coins to them twice. Recommended not to put a reserve on them . There was 6 years worth of collecting in there Irish coins including 2 mules . unlisted coins and over dates. 87kg yes I know a bit of a hoarder lol . Nothing was mentioned in the catalogue apart from mainly base metal types some irish and 20 1912-H pennies varies grades to EF. No silver mentioned nor the silver crowns. There was easily £6000 without attributing the unlisted coins. I didn't even get scrap value back. Excuse was "sometimes niche buyers are looking for certain items and don't like large lots" BS then split the bloody lots up. it only went as one lot on their recommendation 2nd time was exactly the same . I should of learned from the first time but I used to be far more trusting. I have my own idea as to why but that is only speculation on my part. But for the most part I don't trust any of them. To them it is one item in a sale. To me or any vendor it is a lifes work and should be treated as such and not sold short with most of the best items left out of descriptions.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMgUfRPWAAE7rP3.jpg:large This is only the third coin from this die. The obverse design was shared by London and Cambridge. https://twitter.com/ajdaubney/status/921008770540539904

I would disagree. There is probably as much undocumented information as there is documented, so you can assume nothing. The vast majority of material in a numismatic sense relies on mint reports, pyx trials, the odd piece of documentary evidence from other sources and one hell of a lot of assumption on the part of auction houses, collectors and dealers. The last bit is where the problems arise. Fourteen years ago at Spink in July 2003, I bought a few of the Weyl pattern pennies at the Adams sale. Peck listed this group as nos P2137 - 2204. Specifically, I aimed for the aluminium examples because this was a precious metal until it became commercially available in 1883-4. Not paying too much attention to the description other than the metal type, I bought them. When I weighed them it quickly dawned that they were roughly 3x too heavy for aluminium ( I hadn't paid attention to the weight given in the sale catalogue) - so what to do? The answer was obviously to resolve the issue. i.e why was it too heavy; what was the metal type, as it clearly didn't match anything listed in Peck, and what else have I missed? So over the next two or three years, I bought a few more pieces from the Nicholson, Cooke and Wayne collections and at the same time, listed all I could find in past sales or price lists. Like Peck I found tracing examples difficult, but over time felt confident enough to arrive at a list of approximately 105 known examples of the series, most of which were unique. That extended the list of variants by more than two dozen, many of these were in a hitherto unrecorded material. The aluminium description had been taken verbatim from the Glendining sale on 15th Dec 1993, where the vendor had presumably thought - too light for silver, so the only other alternative looking like that is aluminium. Aluminium it is then! I published the results in the 2011 BNJ. Proof if you want it, that the auctioneers aren't trying to dupe, I think they simply don't know when it comes to esoteric material, because they don't have material analysis equipment to hand. Nobody apart from museums or nerds like me and others on this forum is going to take the time to get the metal analysed and prove one way or the other what the attribution should be. Same again in the Adams halfcrown sale where I bought the RM trial halfcrown struck from ship halfpenny dies. It was listed as Cu-Ni, but is magnetic. It transpires that it is about 87% iron with the remainder mostly chromium with a trace of manganese. Again, a case of total reliance on what has been said before without any corroborative evidence. You have to question anything and everything unless proven, because nobody has all the answers.

No not necessarily Medals can be struck in many metals and many are from lead,pewter,gun metal,silver,bronze,copper,gold. Just about anything. Seller has high reputation(not that that says much these days). I would research a little and find what these were struck in. The description is non deceptive as in the seller isn't calling it something it isn't. Best thing you have done is ask the question I am sure one of the experts will point you in the right direction. That's above my pay grade

Hey Jester, good points, and absolutely fair enough, though I have to draw your attention to one statement which I quote below, which is totally false, with many examples to prove it! ? "At a minimum, buying a coin already slabbed/graded guarantees authenticity"

Polite way of saying its a fake lol. especially if you know something was only ever struck in one metal type I.E Silver . But if an auctioneer were to call it such he would have less chance of selling it . Been on the other end of that white metal description for a russian rouble . No mention of base metal. £350 arrived and it was magnetic. Did the auctioneer know this? You bet your life he did and this was from an online auctioneers through salerooms. With an est of £40-£60 . He put the price to tempt bids. refused to refund the money. never again . lol

In token/medal terms, you can usually take tin to be the major component. A quick check of the weight should be enough to gauge whether tin is indicated.

Tin alloy. Usually with lead. The Moore pattern pennies of 1860 were listed by Peck as being struck in antimony, but an analysis of the metal by EDX gave a tin to lead ratio of approximately 2:1. That would pass as white metal.

Annes take on William and Mary

Gosh, that was a powerful can of lager!! I,m starting to see double!! ?http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1708-Queen-Anne-silver-three-penny-coin/122758009027?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

I don't think it will open much of a can of worms, @Rob, because I think most the people on here are exhausted and bemused by the gulf between the two collector types. I agree with absolutely everything you say and, interestingly, I've only just noticed a very obvious detail that I've overlooked before. Namely, that there are those who buy slabs and miss out on the exploration and, in my opinion, numismatic essence of it all...and there are those who know their stuff and enjoy manipulating the slabbing phenomenon, whether that's taking advantage of that which is already slabbed, or still having a good finger on the pulse of what makes a great raw coin and then getting it slabbed! A big difference, very different animals! Having said that, it could open up a can of worms!

This post will probably open a big can of worms. If you definitely want a graded date run, you have set your own criteria, so will have to bite the bullet and buy another. It really depends on what you want as the US market is firmly addicted to slabs, and dare I say it, afraid to contradict the 'experts'. You bought the coin because it looked good, and for most people, that will and should be the determining reason. Personally, I think people should collect for pleasure, and not as an investment. If you are thinking along the lines of the second, then you will have to go for higher grades, as that is what the 'investor' is looking for. The phrase on the reverse of the details slab says it all. 'Details grade does not determine value' implies the converse, i.e. a graded number will dictate the price you must pay. Clearly this is nonsense, as no two coins are the same, and by extension do not necessarily pass the 'does it look nice?' audition, even if the TPG thinks they are equal. The top end of the US market, or those trying to outdo the other slab collectors in the competitive most highly graded type sets promoted by the TPGs, is driven by someone else's opinion, and not that of the person who is spending the money. To a large extent, slabbing is a triumph of marketing over a willingness on the part of the collector to do the necessary spadework. Horses for courses, I'm afraid. Yes, a TPG submission is a bit of a lottery. However, for those who collect the coin rather than the number, slabs can offer countless opportunities to acquire incorrectly identified coins; or correctly identified coins, but in a slab too lowly graded to attract the money irrespective of its appeal. From a personal perspective, maybe 20% of the hundred or more slabs I have bought have fallen into one of these two categories, with lower MS numbers frequently looking better than the higher graded examples from named collections, the latter of which apparently deserve a better rating. And a details or maybe a VF or whatever grade on a coin where I am struggling to find any suitable example is a no-brainer, with bargains aplenty. That can be really good. Even if you are firmly on the slabbing route, there is nothing wrong with buying raw coins if you have familiarised yourself with what constitutes an uncleaned, naturally toned, and basically untampered with, example. For the beginner it is a steep learning curve with mistakes necessarily being made to provide the experience of what a 'good' coin looks like, but it gets easier with time. i.e. just like everything else in life. It is the numismatic equivalent of the saying, 'the harder I practice, the luckier I get'. Slabbing attempts to remove this learning curve by saying 'you don't need to know, just accept what we say', leading to a healthy income for the TPGs with their captive adherents. Ultimately, the decision is for you to decide what you want. Collecting isn't a p'ing competition, just something for personal satisfaction and interest.