Leaderboard

Completely agree with you Mike regarding NGC/PCGS graders. I am not of the opinion that they are infallible and never make mistakes. In the same breath, I do not believe these companies are pulling people off the street corner and giving them jobs as coin graders. I also agree with you regarding the mark-up on slabbed coins over raw. However, as long as the disparity exists and collectors are willing to pay the elevated prices, I'll look to profit from it when the opportunity presents itself...Vive la Capitalism!

I notice the remaining "what is it" fake (the Commonwealth one) has been "pulled" citing reason "the item is no longer available". Perhaps we actually got through to him!

Leeway doesn't come into it. Wear is wear, whether it happened a year ago or a millennium ago is irrelevant. Leeway is wishful thinking on the part of the owner. All people have to do is accept that there are coins which don't make unc and be happy with them. It's not difficult really. None of the three I posted alongside were uncs, VF, nEF and a decent EF was the best I could go to.

100% agreed. If people are willing to pay, then you have a ready market. Given the opportunity, it would be foolish not to take full advantage.

It also happens with the TPG's themselves. Put two identical coins same grade one in NGC slab and one in PCGS slab and the PCGS will sell for a lot more than the NGC. Almost to the extent that NGC is the poorman's grader with ANACS reflecting the true price of what the coin should sell at . Are the graders at PCGS any better qualified than NGC or ANACS?I very much doubt as some of the graders @ PCGS have worked for both the other two companies. But human folk will follow any news bulletin which most are just fake or rumours about standards @ each TPG and it is probably generated by the TPG's themselves. So in the end it gives the collector the mindset that if he buys a PCGS slab he must pay more for it.It is a nonsense idea but that is how marketing is done these days . Stir the interest> create the demand> Package it> Sell for as much as humanly possible

I see you are from the States @Jester and I know that US collectors are into slabbing coins probably much more than we in the UK are. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't subscribe to the general view that the opinion of the grader at NGC (or wherever else for that matter) should be treated as infallible. They do make mistakes not only wityh grading, but also sometimes with the variety of the coin itself. Moreover, I think the extent of the mark up on slabbed coins over raw ones, is a bit silly, to be honest.

Thanks for the feedback. I truly appreciate your candor and concern. I've got quite a bit of experience with slabbing coins as well as selling them for profit. My most recent transaction was a 2017 1/10 oz Gold BU Libertad purchased early August for about $250 followed about a month later with a 2017 1/20 oz Gold Proof Libertad for $120. Both were going to be key coins based on the estimated mintages for the 2017 Gold Libertad series. I sent them off to NGC for grading. The 1/10 oz BU came back MS 69 (see below) which is a good result given that BdM sends their BU coins out in bags. The 1/20 oz Proof, as you'd expect/hope came back PF 70 UC (see below). I sold the 1/10 oz on 10/05, about two months after purchase, for $750 and the 1/20 oz on 10/12, about a month after purchase, for $300. So my total outlay, including grading was about $470 and after eBay/PayPal fees I cleared a profit of $443, essentially doubling my money in less than two months. Obviously that type of example doesn't happen every week but if you watch for the right opportunity, it can be quite profitable. If a more numismatic example is desired, I picked up a 1807 African Head Napoleon 1/4F from the DNW auction in June. I think the adjustment mark (which occurred at the Paris Mint) scared bidders away and I picked it up for about £170 ($225) including buyer's premium. I sent it to NGC for grading and it came back AU 58 (see below). Looking up this coin in the Standard Catalog of World Coins 1801 - 1900, it's valued at $500 in VF40 so it's reasonable to say it's somewhere north of $500 given the grade and rarity (only 41,000 were minted in 1807 before Napoleon shut it down) with only four coins in higher grade between NGC and PCGS combined. No sales price realized as I haven't sold it yet but it'll be going to Heritage Auctions next week so we'll see! I have my raw coins slabbed and graded simply because I like slabbed and graded coins. Certainly not using it as a crutch in place of learning how to grade (and I'm definitely still learning). Again, thank you for your feedback. I always enjoy hearing other members' opinions and perspectives.

Hi , below is my 2+e 1909, as you said the 1 in date should be directly over the tooth, but also the right side down stroke of the N in ONE should point to the gap between the teeth. Terry

Now if you send him a polite message as well, he might respond and threaten to report you to eBay for being aggressive!

Jester, I have taken a look at those two crowns that you mentioned and the cheaper one has signs of wear that the other one doesn't. Look at the belt thing across St George's chest (this wears very quickly), the visor of his helmet, the edge of Victoria's veil, and her hair... Now, does that justify an increase of price of 700%? It is true that the value does not increase linearly with quality, it is exponential (as relative rarity), and once you go higher than EF it gets really into very fine details. But more than a grand for a common 1887 crown is pushing it too far I think.

Nice find!

This post will probably open a big can of worms. If you definitely want a graded date run, you have set your own criteria, so will have to bite the bullet and buy another. It really depends on what you want as the US market is firmly addicted to slabs, and dare I say it, afraid to contradict the 'experts'. You bought the coin because it looked good, and for most people, that will and should be the determining reason. Personally, I think people should collect for pleasure, and not as an investment. If you are thinking along the lines of the second, then you will have to go for higher grades, as that is what the 'investor' is looking for. The phrase on the reverse of the details slab says it all. 'Details grade does not determine value' implies the converse, i.e. a graded number will dictate the price you must pay. Clearly this is nonsense, as no two coins are the same, and by extension do not necessarily pass the 'does it look nice?' audition, even if the TPG thinks they are equal. The top end of the US market, or those trying to outdo the other slab collectors in the competitive most highly graded type sets promoted by the TPGs, is driven by someone else's opinion, and not that of the person who is spending the money. To a large extent, slabbing is a triumph of marketing over a willingness on the part of the collector to do the necessary spadework. Horses for courses, I'm afraid. Yes, a TPG submission is a bit of a lottery. However, for those who collect the coin rather than the number, slabs can offer countless opportunities to acquire incorrectly identified coins; or correctly identified coins, but in a slab too lowly graded to attract the money irrespective of its appeal. From a personal perspective, maybe 20% of the hundred or more slabs I have bought have fallen into one of these two categories, with lower MS numbers frequently looking better than the higher graded examples from named collections, the latter of which apparently deserve a better rating. And a details or maybe a VF or whatever grade on a coin where I am struggling to find any suitable example is a no-brainer, with bargains aplenty. That can be really good. Even if you are firmly on the slabbing route, there is nothing wrong with buying raw coins if you have familiarised yourself with what constitutes an uncleaned, naturally toned, and basically untampered with, example. For the beginner it is a steep learning curve with mistakes necessarily being made to provide the experience of what a 'good' coin looks like, but it gets easier with time. i.e. just like everything else in life. It is the numismatic equivalent of the saying, 'the harder I practice, the luckier I get'. Slabbing attempts to remove this learning curve by saying 'you don't need to know, just accept what we say', leading to a healthy income for the TPGs with their captive adherents. Ultimately, the decision is for you to decide what you want. Collecting isn't a p'ing competition, just something for personal satisfaction and interest.

The other thing to bear in mind is that not everybody has a fabulous collection of top grade, superb coins. You could get that impression from reading the posts on here, and it is certainly something to aim for, but it really isn't like that for most of us. A few do reach these high standards, and good luck to them, but most don't - if we did then lower grade material simply wouldn't sell at auction and as you know it does sell perfectly well. Also, of course high grade coins are not always available and a lower standard has to be accepted, at least until a better one comes along - if ever! Many of us simply can't afford to buy in top grade, but if we are date collectors we either have to accept a lower grade for a rare date, or live with a gap. For instance, my 1854 sixpence is GF at best. It's a rare date and high grade specimens occasionally come along, but their price is astronomic. So, I'm faced with a choice. Do I buy a high grade 1854 for £2-3k or more, or do I buy maybe several more interesting, but less rare coins of other denominations? Choices, choices. Only a lottery win would take away the problem. My point is that you shouldn't be put off by not achieving the goal of perfection. As I say, most of us have lower grade coins in our collections, simply because it isn't always possible to do better. For me, I'd always have the lower grade than a gap. Gaps are like missing front teeth, whereas lower grade can always be upgraded sometime.

@Paulus I am very sorry that I did not see this topic until just now. I have no idea how I missed it, but I only poke my head in every once in a while in the summer months, and I see it was posted in July. Nonetheless, I will post a bit below on my methods. Firstly, let me just say that your pictures have improved a great deal Paulus. You're capturing luster very well in your more recent images, and the focus is also much sharper. I feel a lot of people pay too much attention to the bells and whistles on fancy cameras or purchase really expensive lenses hoping that having the right (i.e., expensive) equipment will somehow make you a better photographer. For coin photography, the most important pieces are often the very inexpensive ones of the equation. Lighting is immensely important - I'd say the most important ingredient for taking good coin images. The type of light bulb (LED, incandescent, fluorescent) you use is less important, but understanding how to use that light source is key. For example, being able to set a custom white balance in your camera for your particular lights is key to getting realistic colors. The size of the light source (small bulb vs. large bulb) or the apparent size of the light source (e.g., a small light source diffused acts like a larger light source) is also important for fully lighting the coin's surface. The angle of the lights changes the appearance of the coin's surfaces a lot -- and your lights should always be placed above your mounted camera lens, if not even higher. With regard to lighting (in particularly angle), I wrote up a little article on the NGC forums some 3+ years ago, and I think it may be helpful. Keep your lights at a high angle to the surface on which the coin is placed, and diffuse them enough or use large enough light point surfaces to avoid hot spots on the coin. See my little schematic below of what my photography rig looks like. Second to lighting, I would say that mounting your camera on a solid copy stand or tripod is very important. Images taken with a hand held camera will be a bit "shaky" or lacking in detail. I have seen hand-held images of coins that get the message across, but the ability to zoom in and see details or inspect surfaces is very limited. Not only is mounting your camera on a sturdy surface important, but it is also important that your camera is aligned to the flat surface of the coin properly. By that I mean, the camera's detector (a small rectangular flat surface at the back of the lens where the image is focused) needs to be perfectly parallel with the coin's surface (i.e., in parallel planes). This is important for focusing reasons. The easiest way to make sure your camera is mounted parallel with the surface on which the coin is placed is to use a little mirror. Place the mirror where you would place the coin, and adjust your camera in the x, y, and z planes as needed until the center of your lens' reflection is perfectly centered in the camera's viewfinder. See the little schematic I created below. Lastly, practice, practice, and practice some more. I have now taken somewhere around 20,000 images of coins over the past 7 years. I have only been happy with my images for the past 4.5 years. It takes a while to get up to "happy" quality -- and I'm still improving my images and tweaking things today. I try to take at least some coin photos 2-3 days of every week. It just keeps me in the "zone". I hope some of these hints help a little. Best, Brandon