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Sometimes you get lucky Peter! ....

Bob You must be seething.

none at all, I mostly buy coins then sell them for about half that price so that someone can have a great day

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1866-SCARCE-QUEEN-VICTORIA-ONE-BRITISH-BRONZE-PENNY-SUPERB-SCARE-COIN/303046211168?hash=item468ef63660:g:kwwAAOSwqVVbN5~u:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true Shelley's up to her tricks - she describes this as a "scare" coin - it's the price that scares me !

I'm old enough to remember the first news of Bloody Sunday coming in; even though I was only a student (in Birmingham) at the time, it caused me real fear and depression as this was 'on our own doorstep' unlike the Arab / Israeli wars. Then two years later came the Birmingham Pub Bombings and it seemed - sorry to be emotional about this - as if 'darkness had settled over the land'. The point I'm making is that the Good Friday Agreement is the best thing to have happened on our two islands in decades. We should never - EVER - risk going back to a situation where the "Troubles" might flare up again, and if the backstop is the best, or even only, method to prevent this, then Brexit is a tiny and insignificant price to pay.

Good clean and clear example, quite scarce

Just arrived today

Birmingham had many businesses producing medals, buttons and tokens from the start of the industrial revolution, and the number of 18th counterfeit halfpennies indicates the skill set was there long before Boulton & Watt set up the Soho mint. Coins are simply an extension of this list because the manufacturing processes are pretty much the same for all. If you are in business, the opportunity to get a design accepted for a national coinage is something to be explored and exploited if possible. So, yes they were made with a view to putting them forward as a prospective currency design, but were not produced in complete isolation. In the case of Joseph Moore's work, the laureate bust punch (see below) was used on his 1860 patterns and also for colonial issues such as the Auckland Licensed Victuallers Association penny token from New Zealand of which 4 varieties are noted in Krause (ref. Tn6). The rust spots are as the die was found in 1886, prior to subsequent polishing down by Shorthouse for the restrikes and do not feature on any original Moore strikings. cf Peck p.483-490

Some of my friends have botox, and when I said I might try it, nobody raised an eyebrow.....

Can anyone help explain to me why these pattern were made? They must have cost a bomb to produce then, so why make them? Were they made with any connection to the Mint, or were producers of them hoping the Mint would like the design and take up production for a fee?

Grade is complicated by that same big issue that affects hammereds. I think this is where the points system of grading works really well, because it considers so many other factors that aren’t just about wear because, as with hammereds, these coins all left the mint as individuals. All that being said, I’d be very happy paying NEF for it all day long, and the grading companies, using numerics, may well judge it better. The soft centre doesn’t bother me at all, it’s weak quarters I personally do not like, and it’s very well compensated by its other qualities. Lovely example! (yes, Dave, a lazy copy and paste from me! Time is precious )