Leaderboard

Already sold out!

In some ways the betrayal of Brexit will make the job of those parties that want to leave very simple tt the next election. I can see the message on the side of the bus right now: 'Vote The Traitors Out.' It should resonate with a large number of voters and may result in a very different political landscape in the future! Hopefully with the loss of a whole slew of remainer MPs: the likes of Anna Soubry for one, but maybe many others as well. If so, then good riddence.

The problem with all these reasonable positions is that the referendum was a binary choice, in which one side or other was bound to be upset. When it comes to the implementation phase, there is no simple way to keep both sides happy. Pandering to remainers desire to stay in is completely incompatible with leavers desire to go. There is no happy medium compromise that can accommodate everyone. You can't be a bit and a bit out. Its an impossible position to square. It's also the reason why leavers are so pissed off with parliament, because the basic terms of leaving were explained in the Cameron leaflet, and the MPs promised to respect and implement the result. The reverse is actually what they are doing, and in my view we are likely to be just a few weeks away from revocation of A50 - the final betrayal. If what I suggest comes to pass i.e. we remain, then here's a nice simply question for anybody who is a remainer and wants to see compromise and a soft to non-existant Brexit. When it comes to leaving you argue for compromise so that 'everyone' can be 'happy.' If we remain in the EU, what compromise is going to be offerred to the 17.4 million leavers, so that their position is protected? How are their desires to be managed, or is it a case of the remainers must be accommodated but the leavers will just have to accept the changes? And a final thought. Why do all you remainers so avidly want to stay in this mafia club? I won't go on about it here, but there's a long list of objections to the EU, which when you put them together make me wonder why anybody in their right mind would want to stay. On the other side, I've yet to see a cohesive and compelling argument in favour of remaining, at least not one that isn't full of all the negative reasons, as opposed to positives.

The MPs may have disappointed 17.4 million people but then they still have a duty of care for the other 50 million.

from the royal mint museum There are many instances of artists actually placing their own features on the faces of subjects in a painting or sculpture and if a comparison is made between the portrait punch illustrated here of the St George from the 1935 Silver Jubilee crown and the photograph of the artist Percy Metcalfe it is possible, as was known at the time, to discern more than a passing resemblance. The clipped hair, the angular profile and the shape of the neck all suggest Metcalfe was doing more than creating a powerfully modern depiction of St George and the dragon, he was in addition subtly and wryly finding a place for himself on the British coinage.

I’d argue that snapshot views are a dangerous thing. Does the leave position today correlate in any way with original campaign promises, I’d say not? Many have gone to their graves on the back of misleading facts and snapshot views, the hangman is testimony to that. I’m just asking that the government and the pressure groups all stand back and take a deep calming breath that’s all. The average 60-70 year old will know nothing of the long-term effects of getting this wrong - but my son will, and he has no say.

Brexit is almost as effective in getting people angry on this forum as TPGs. I will say this before trying to stay away from this tread. I do strongly disagree with Brexiteers calling Remain MPs "traitors". Some are even claiming that MPs like Dominic Grieve are arrogant in thinking they are more intelligent and better informed than the people they represent. An MP is not some sort of brainless mouthpiece for his constituents. He has a duty to act and vote in the best interest of his constituents and the population at large. And yes, I do very much hope that our MPs are intelligent and well informed. Mr Grieve is a QC, was an attorney general, was the shadow Justice and Home Secretaries. Yes, I would say he is very well informed and undoubtedly very intelligent. He is pushing for a second referendum because he genuinely believe rightly or wrongly it is the best option for the country. I respect him a great deal more than someone voting along party lines as an easier way out. And if we don't like what our MPs are doing, we SACK them in the next general election. That is our system of our democracy. But I do object to calling principled politicians traitors. I ask people in favour of Brexit this question: If Remain won that referendum narrowly and there are MPs pushing for Brexit, would you call those MPs traitors? Probably not.

Yes, in an ideal world every point of view would be taken into account. But the nature of a referendum is to take a snapshot view at a given point in time, from those who are able and willing to vote. That's their very essence. There was a referendum in 1975 to confirm us staying in the then Common Market. I don't imagine too much thought was given then to the 33% who voted against, nor to those who didn't bother voting. Nor to those too young to vote at that time, or to those (including me) who were not yet born. As far as those who for whatever reason decide not to vote when they could do, I've got no time. Their opinion is the least important as they have passed up their opportunity of their volition. For those of a younger demographic who feel their opinion is more important than anybody else's - sorry, no. Democracy is based on every vote being of equal value, with no vote or group more important than anybody else's. To stray away from that principle is to go down an extremely dangerous path. One which essentially compromises democracy and would cause deep resentment among some, and an artificial feeling of self importance among others. For those who were too young to vote in 2016, well hard luck. Again, a referendum takes that snapshot view at a given point in time. How else can it be done? In conclusion, we were told that the result of the referendum would be honoured, and people voted in good faith based on that. If that result was not to your liking, then in democratic spirit you should bow to the majority will. To now see the current shambles in parliament caused by a bunch of mainly remainer MP's manifestly hell bent on stopping brexit, is appalling. Puffed up with their own arrogant self importance, they clearly are quite happy to "piss all over" the majority of voters in that 2016 referendum. Not my expression by the way. I heard it today at work in connection with the same topic, and thought it was quite apt

That’s the biggest part of what’s bad about all this, is now I’m feeling the snowball has got too big and we’re all, both leavers and remainers, running out of sensible ways forward. Surely the leavers never meant for this? In a very strange way the country seems somehow united in the chaos we’re in.

I don't know, think probably Diane Abbot would invite them in as lost souls. There are good and bad arguments for both sides, unfortunately the ideal is not on offer.

Another good indicator Ian. OBV 1..... I of IMP to space OBV 2......I of IMP to tooth.

I assume the 50 million is the rest of the UK population whether able to vote or not. 2019 estimate is approx 66.85 million , so leaving 49.45 after those who voted leave are accounted for.

Wow - this could be a unique striking.... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1912-H-UK-Queen-Victoria-One-Penny/192875121266?hash=item2ce840ca72:g:oKEAAOSwVXdcVabm

Crikey, I don't think they're that quick at making fakeys.... but you never know.