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No provenance ever harmed a coin's value, but doesn't necessarily produce a premium because everyone tries to acquire things as cheaply as possible and in any case must be related to the popularity of the sale on the day. To my mind, the provenance/hoard/desirability issue is a small part of a greater circle. A collection of top quality coins is always likely to have more historical documentation for the simple reason that nothing happens in a vacuum. People often remember when the coin was last sold and the price paid. They are frequently aware of recent pieces that have come to market, the price they sold for and their grade together with any defects. All of this helps put a coin in context compared to its peers in respect of value and where it comes in the pecking order of available examples. So a good provenance is usually linked to a higher quality collection, and a higher quality coin is normally going to cost the buyer more in any case. It's actually very difficult to strip out any part of the price that is attributable to a specific provenance. When you say books or papers, presumably you are then able to tie the coin into a specific collection? Are you including catalogues in this? If so there was precious little illustration prior to the late 19th century and what there was tended to be a little stylistic from wood carvings. Sometimes there was an attempt to be accurate even with wood carvings, e.g. the Pembroke plates (1746) tried to faithfully reproduce the shape of fragments, and the illustrations in Ruding (1819-41) were sufficiently accurate to be able to identify some pieces, such as the Tournai 1513 groat as being that example formerly in the BM. I suppose you are mostly paying little, if anything for the name, but by happy coincidence and self evidently the best collections contain the best individual pieces, which typically sell for higher prices.

I posted this some time back . It just goes to show what can go through your fingers which you later regret. Talking of what was, and was not released into circulation , during the war my mother picked up in change a brass 3d piece, which to her was just a 3d bit to spend ,she at that time had absolutely no thoughts at all of coin collecting , as after all there was a war on and she was a teenager with thoughts only of spending money . Anyway, she just glancing at the coin and noticed that the tails side was different to the normal 3d, being as she said, different with more of a stylised design than normal , but then gave the coin no more thought, and passed it to the bus conductor to pay for her fare . Well, many years later , after starting to collect coins, she found out about the Edward viii 3d piece with the stylised reverse, and knew that was what she had held in her hand all those years before , she felt sick, thinking if only I had known of there existence at the time, and if only she had turned the coin over she might have noticed that it was an Edward viii 3d, and not the George vi . I believe these were all pattern coins, and were not supposed to be released into circulation. God knows what there worth today, maybe one of you on here has one , let us know. It makes me wonder what may have passed through my hands without my knowing about its rarity . Terry

The world appeared a much smaller place when pre decimal coins were in circulation. There were just as many collectors but only a fraction of the communication. Contact between these collectors was by postal letter, possibly telephone and coin magazines. A coin such as this coronet could circulate quite easily between millions of exchanges by non collectors without even being looked at. Even if it was noticed now and again as being different, it would still not have stopped it being spent, especially in the chewing gum machine.

"How the hell is this worn??" was my initial thought. This is one coin that attracts me. With funds, anyone's collection can be amazing. Spectacular circular pieces of art. All the specimen and proofs in the back of the books have never ever attracted me. If you are rich, you can almost just go and buy them whenever you want. That's not really collecting to me. Not jealousy, just fact. However, the frisson of excitement the first time a collector noticed this must have been amazing. Now I'm jealous. ....what a story this coin could tell, and how many times did it slide across a shop counter right under the nose of an avid penny collector, (as the child in front bought a quarter of acid drops, ) but showing 'tails'........????

It is, Chris, yes. It's the F74 from the Copthorne collection.

Love me, love my cat

I have just noticed that my 1874H F73 has the E of REG tilted to the right. Not earth-shattering but interesting to the micro-variety fans. I haven't seen this on any other obverse 7 coins as yet.

Don't know if a member grabbed the 1862 penny with HP numerals on Sunday evening, which sold in a group of 9 for £143.04. Poor grade, but date very clear. I have cropped the ebay pictures in case Richard wishes to add to his site.

I'm straying off the subject here Rob, apologies, but while you were there did you see the 1672 silver proof halfpenny in the Blackburn Museum? Probably unique and in beautiful condition. They sent me a photo of it once and it looked the equal of the BM 1673 silver proof (Peck plate coin). And separately again, whatever happened to Noble's silver pattern quatuor maria vindico halfpenny P403 (Glens 1973). Disappeared into the ether? That was a fantastic coin as well.

It's an error alright. Paying $574.50 for it that is.

A premium depending on the name(s) involved, but not necessarily the deciding factor when buying a coin. There's something very satisfying when you need multiple tickets to record the details plus provenance. It's also worth noting that a provenance going back a century where it was illustrated in the catalogue is also a very good indicator of how good it is relative to its peers or how rare the coin is, as only the best examples for whatever reason got imaged, even in Montagu, Murdoch etc. Certain collectors were also renowned for only collecting the best available, so the provenance helps a little here too. Quality and certain names frequently go hand in hand.

This topic is supposed to be "Stuff to make us laugh" but seems to have veered once more into the very unfunny political arena.

There's one like that for crows and vultures: KEEP CALM AND CARRION

OK, it's not that funny, but was worth buying.......