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The 1858 Large Rose reverse which is paired with the small date obverse I believe is a completely different die to the Large Rose reverse which is paired with the large date obverse. Pictures of both reverses are attached, where the first obvious difference to note is the colon dot positions. There are also other differences to individual letters in the legends, which can be seen with close up pictures. The Obverse 1858 with large numerals (some think a 9/8), apart from being interesting because of it's peculiar overdate, has the added interest of being seen paired with 3 different reverse dies; the large rose reverse being the second of those. I can provide further details about this if anyone wants more information.

I asked my friend to buy me a French phrase book. He bought me a book about growing strawberries. (heard on Ken Bruce this morning).

Karl Marx is a noted historical figure but no one ever mentions his sister, Onya, who invented the starting pistol.

Hi, Cliff. Just looked at my low grade one and yes, the die clash is there. Looks like that is another good diagnostic as well as the die crack through the 5. Apologies for poor quality pics here from crappy iPad, but you should be able just to make out both clash and die crack. They are both much clearer in hand.

Yes, correct Mike. The DEF colon dots on the 1858LR Small date are the type which Gouby gives as CP 1858 F. Link to his site below:- http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp1858DEF.htm

Great information, Ian, I'll add this to my varieties site in the next few days.

Maybe not a coincidence - if the right breast is the first to show wear it is because it is the highest point of the coin. If it is the highest point of the coin, then it will be the lowest (deepest) point of the die, and therefore probably the first point that any die fill will occur, resulting in a weakly struck breast. Just a thought.

Surely. Apologies though, I think I got a bit carried away in describing it as UNC. Looking at it again with a more critical eye, it's actually much closer to GEF/EF. Although if you look at the breast area you could be forgiven for thinking it's a lower grade than that on the reverse. Nonetheless, I think it makes the point very well about the worn breasts.

Thing with the copper pennies Cliff is that both dies were often swapped .So although the REV die may be the same on two different coins the OBV has been changed ,this happens frequently with overdates ,repairs etc. So although i cant remember looking the REV may be the same for both date types and the 5 die crack being on the OBV just the small date. The same theory with the 1848 that is mentioned different dies for both the OBV & REV that were swapped around.

My 1848 unaltered date penny reverse. The right breast plate is a bit flat but otherwise quite a minty coin so can't see it being wear from circulation.

Am I correct in assuming that the Rev die clash, showing to the left of her right forearm on Pete and Martin's earlier pics, is on all small date, large rose examples (as well as the 5 die crack)? If so, die clash may have something to do with the apparent worn right breast?

Yeah, the right breast has worn away. Appalling.

Enough with the washers Pete, haven't you got a decent one to share?

Found it : Auction 137, 3/6/12, Lot 478. Sold for £600. The diagnostic feature of the genuinely small date is a die crack running up through the 5 of the date. Think this is the only one sold by London Coins - as I say, their other ones are mistakenly called this small date when they are not. I have a low grade one also with the die crack and think I have seen a picture somewhere on this forum (where??) of another. Any more known by anyone?

Thanks a lot, Martin. Looking forward to seeing it. Thanks also for the heads up on the large rose, small date variety. I didn't know about these. As far as the small date specifically, I've already noticed a number of large dates being touted as small dates. I think there's a few dealers who can't really tell the difference. But of course a genuine small date will be instantly visible as such, alongside a large date.

Well, blow me, Mike - it was me you have bought it from! Didn't recognise the full name when I came to packet it up for posting. Anyway, really pleased it is going to a good home. I managed to get hold of a better one a few weeks ago so was moving this one on. You now need to look out for a large rose but with a small date! These are MUCH rarer it seems... I have one in rather low grade and have seen maybe only two more. For a long while, London Coins were selling these larger date ones as small date, but they are certainly not! I think they have sold one genuinely small date one for quite a sum. I'll see if I can locate their image of it now... Enjoy the coin! Posted yesterday (Monday) so hopefully you'll get it today or tomorrow.

The first reference I came across was in Coin Market Values in 1998, described as 1858 8/9 Large Rose, not having seen one or an image I thought it could have been a reference to a full rose, as most CP1858 are missing the top petal. It wasn't until several years later I found my first one. I thought at first it was a Penny Obv paired with Halfpenny Reverse until I looked at the trident.

To quote the great Tom Lehrer in "Bright College Days" Hearts full of truth, hearts full of youth. Six parts of gin to one of vermouth."

add "+ O(Fillmore West)" before "= M" and you have your olive