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Found it : Auction 137, 3/6/12, Lot 478. Sold for £600. The diagnostic feature of the genuinely small date is a die crack running up through the 5 of the date. Think this is the only one sold by London Coins - as I say, their other ones are mistakenly called this small date when they are not. I have a low grade one also with the die crack and think I have seen a picture somewhere on this forum (where??) of another. Any more known by anyone? I spent this morning looking through all my pictures of 1858 pennies sold on ebay in the 5 year period between September 2006 and September 2011. I have been gradually trying to do stats on some of the easier dates but thought in light of the discussion on 1858 Large Rose pennies I would try to come up with something useful for that particular variety. This meant trawling through nearly 5000 images of around 2400 coins. I think that the numbers below will be fairly representative of 1858 Large Roses as a percentage of the entire 1858 population, because in the period 2006-2011 it was only known about by a handful of collectors, prior to the LCA 2012 piece which was only in Fine grade and fetched £600. From the 2400'ish 1858's listed on ebay in these 5 years, there were 13 Large Roses, 6 Small Dates and 7 Large Dates. Two interesting things I also noted were:- 1) The very first one in my study was listed in late 2006. It was an ok grade but was re-listed again a week later because it didn't sell. 2) The second one, which sold around mid-2007, I was surprisingly outbid on at the last minute. This was when we could still see the ebay ID's of other bidders, so it sparked off a discussion between me and John S. about who the bidder called Rashenley actually was.........but I guess that's a secret! I think that the 1858 LR's are one of my favourite varieties in the YH penny series, and have perhaps become a little under-rated since 2012. Like John, I spent quite a time getting my first decent specimen. The 2012 LCA sale prompted collectors to search their own collections to see if they already had one; this resulted in a few more seen at subsequent LCA auctions, several of which I think have been 'doing the rounds' without actually increasing the overall population.

Proof that there's one born every minute.

Hi Martin, Thanks for that, and your question. I was just about to reply to Mike to say that the % may be a little higher then 0.54%. I am sure that the 13 are all different examples. You can always find other unique markings on coins to check on this. The only one listed twice was the first one in 2006 which I mentioned above. So result was 13, not 14. However, some of the other 1858's in the sample of 2400'ish will have been double counted. I cannot possibly check for every instance of listing same coins. Apart from the fact that some pictures are really poor, when coins swap hands and are re-listed by a different seller then the pictures always change significantly. If I were to give it a best guess I would say that discounting relist of same coins over the period then the total population may go down by a couple of hundred, but I think would still be over 2000. Hope this helps. I have pictures of all 13 large roses if anyone wishes to see any other examples. My small date, which I pictured earlier, I bought on ebay for £23 in March 2009. Here are the ebay actual pictures. P.S. I now know who Rashenley is!

Just found a great online German butchers. Ordered some excellent sausages but I think the wurst is yet to come.

Hear, hear! An amazing piece of dedication and meticulous study. Wow! This might be an even sneakier follow up question: of those 6 small dates and 7 large, do you reckon they were 13 different specimens, or were some of them coming round again?😮 One would have to look for unique wear points or damage or discolouration etc to be sure, I guess... Since I have been aware of the two types and been looking ( perhaps 5 or 6 years ) for them, I have certainly seen fewer small date than large, both on eBay and in mainstream auctions like London Coins. But your figures, Ian, would suggest similar rarity. I wonder now with this thread and revived interest, if a few more specimens of each type might surface?? Bravo to you, Ian!

I don't get it. Why would anyone list anything at many multiples of market value? I know hope springs eternal in some eyes that someone will be stupid enough to pay way over the odds, but to me, the only message it conveys is a that of a vendor who has a grossly inflated view of its value, who wouldn't accept a sensible offer even if you made one. i.e. Don't waste your time and move on. It's bizarre.

Ian, I can only stand and applaud not only at your initial dedication at assembling this information between 2006 and 2011, but also in taking the time to trawl through the images in order to arrive at a number of large rose types to the remainder of the 1858 population included in your study. Thanks and maximum respect to you for this. Two points from me. Firstly I never imagined the large rose as a proportion of the rest, would be as low as 0.54%. That is a genuine surprise, and I can only say how pleased I am to have secured one, albeit at relatively low grade. Second point is from what John said about him first becoming aware of the existence of this type from "Coin Market Values" in 1998 - only 22 years ago. Obviously that still doesn't pinpoint exactly when and who. Maybe whoever it was didn't treat it as a revelation because they assumed it was already known about. So it actually became more widely known about by stealth, as it were. Previously, I simply couldn't understand why neither Bramah nor Peck had come across this type and mentioned it in their writings. But with that kind of scarcity wrapped within what is the commonest pre 1860 Victoria year, it perhaps becomes more understandable. Finally I think I know who Rashenly might be...........

I asked my friend to buy me a French phrase book. He bought me a book about growing strawberries. (heard on Ken Bruce this morning).

Karl Marx is a noted historical figure but no one ever mentions his sister, Onya, who invented the starting pistol.