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I have to at least make some cursory effort to inform myself as to why two members are not getting along. Get a bit of background, you know. Although I think I probably wish I hadn't. The BLM thing was years ago and this is a coin forum. Peckris' recent post about Jenrick was silly, but he's still not going on and on about the same thing for years. I'm going to close this topic for now. I may open it again at some point. Please don't start another one or carry on somewhere else where you left off. I think we know where you're coming from by now and you and Peckris are never going to be buddies. That's it, back to coins.

My idea a few years ago was to do away with the 1p and 2p because they are comparatively expensive to make and fiddly to deal with, and have the 5p as the smallest denomination in regular use, as is already the case in some countries (I think NZ and Australia have 5c as their smallest in-use coin). But with a just-for-fun and British quirky twist - have it renamed as a 'Shilling' (dually featuring both '5' and 'Shilling' in the design). Items could then be priced in Pounds and Shillings if so desired, but it would still be decimal and technically nothing would change, there would still be 100 pennies in a pound and the 5p would still be 1/20th of a pound just like it and the shilling always were. Merchants could price exactly the same as now, e.g. £3.40 or they could be brave and price as £3/8 for the novelty value. Most would no doubt stick to the way it is now, but it would be fun to have pounds and shillings, and perhaps shillings could catch on at least colloquially. The 10p could be called a florin and the 20p a double florin. The 50p would be 10 shillings, obviously. I think it would be fun thing, but it's no doubt too late to re-establish any kind of shilling now, even in name only, for 2 reasons - 1. People who fondly remember using actual shillings are becoming scarcer so there really isn't much nostalgic connection with shillings, florins etc among the general public as a whole and the concept of having £1 made up of 20 of something would be confusing for many. And.. 2. Physical cash in everyday use for payment of most things is being overtaken by electronic alternatives, so use of actual cash is dwindling and is very likely to continue on a downward trend. Pie in the sky. Maybe it could have worked 20 or 30 years ago!

Bawbees are notorious for having circulated deep into the 18th century by which time they were barely identifiable - so this rather decent 1679 example is an exception to the beater bawbee rule.

Found the others today....A fair devil indeed....

You'd need a deep pocket for most of these recent items at Heritage, but not all early copper has sky-rocketed over the last few years - the slab-grades have the main effect of course. There are two Peck plate coins, but none of the coins including theses were provenanced by Heritage. Perhaps the buyers recognised them too, but probably just going on the grades. All are hammer prices: 1694 1/2d - MS61 - $1200. Surprisingly low grade for a coin that retains lustre, this is the Nicholson example that sold for £1,200 (I think) in 2004, if so it's made no money at all over the last 20+ years! This is the exception price-wise. 1694 1/4d - MS64RB - $7,000. Lovely colour though slightly porous detail, this is Colin Cooke's own example sold 2005. 1695 1/2d - MS63 - $9,000 - big rise on this one, though it has been glossed and lost some lustre since previously sold at Baldwin's 2010 Strickland-Neville Rolfe auction. I saw it at the time and wondered if it was thick-flan (there's only one known otherwise) as it did look unusually thick. It was a bit porous though so that can be deceptive. Unfortunately it was sealed in plastic and I couldn't ask Baldwins to weigh it, because if it was heavy weight, they'd have amended the description and it wouldn't have been a bargain! It wasn't very cleanly struck though and It went for £540 back then. 1699 1/4d date in legend - MS64 - $7,000. This is Brook's example and is the Peck Plate coin despite the dark photograph where you had to squint to make out much. The edge variation matched up and it is of course the no-stop between A and the date variety - which was also not mentioned by Heritage. As far as I know, this was last sold in the Shuttleworth collection SNC 2001 as EF £650. 1701 1/2d - MS63 - $7,250. Also the Peck plate coin and Heritage auctions missed (or the slabbers couldn't be bothered to note) it was no stops obverse (P.704). This is ex Nicholson Hopetown House, Peck.

Those prices are quite astonishing. I have Peck's own 636 plate coin (Montagu 3); so now may be a good time to sell.

FFS, alright STOP. How do you have the energy to hold a grudge for 5+ years and still get so worked up now? I can't even be bothered to read all of the 'Proof there is no god' thread, because even with my 'neutral' cap on, trying to be objective, you really do seem to moan on and on and on. And now you're doing it in this topic, years later! Be cool man, at least for your blood pressure and arteries, it's just not worth it. People don't want to see it. I don't want to see it. Tit for tat nonsense. I don't think I've ever paused/suspended or had to take any disciplinary action on anyone in the forum in 20+ years (some that did have bees in their bonnet tended to leave in a huff of their own accord). Please, either take this elsewhere.... difficult I know, if Peckris has blocked you or whatever. Or find some other place to argue with people. Life's way too short.

I don’t like using proprietary products because I don’t know what’s in them, and I believe VerdiCare is difficult to obtain in the UK anyway. After some research on what the British Museum used to use to treat bronze disease and verdigris on large objects, like cannon, I tried the technique for myself on this battered 1799 half-penny. For anyone interested, the treatment was 100 minutes at 90°C in a 2% w/w solution of sodium sesquicarbonate in chlorine-free water. Followed by a rinse in chlorine-free water to remove the chemical and then a rinse in acetone to remove the water. The heat is needed as the reaction is impossibly slow at room temperature.

It's exactly the same - they haven't changed a thing.

It is rough but i think there is enough information to identify it. I can read VND + PIE i think. Which would make it Pieres at London Mint. Spink guide shows Pieres & Pieres M minting at London during class 1 under Henry II. Stu.

This is a fairly common contemporary counterfeit. J015o / I801r in my current system. It's connected to a number of other dies of various groups - it's the 7th coin in this die chain

You were 100% correct Stu and thanks unwillingly numismatist for putting me on to Liz who verified it was a fantasy piece unfortunately 😕 Thanks guys this is much appreciated because it's irked me for some time. Glad it was in a joblot of coins auction and as it hardly cost anything.

1882 were nearly all minted by Heatons and therefore carry the H - a few were minted in London (just to test the new electronic presses?) and are very rare. I'm baffled by the George III coins though - pennies weren't minted until 1797, "cartwheel" type. There's no 1773 or 1775 pennies, but there were halfpennies which are noticeably smaller than bun pennies unlike your 1773. The 1775 looks very wrong and is probably an 'evasion' type, i.e. a contemporary forgery produced in the US. The 1773 "penny" looks more like a genuine halfpenny should apart from the size , but is also probably wrong - REX is wider spaced than on a genuine example.

His constituency is Newark apparently. I wonder if Kemi Badenoch has reflected on possible anagrams that could be made...?

Obviously this bawbee from King William III from 1697 circulated as a halfpenny deep into the 18th century given it's wear pattern

Not the best example but an unusual pairing. Withers 411 Bradford Workhouse counterstamp on a Samuel Fereday Bilston token.

The verdigris may not show very well in the photo. Below is another "before" photo under different light. Work is in progress on coins with more obvious/stubborn verdigris. I will report back!

Hello all. I am having some difficulties with this halved short cross penny. Specifically I am finding it hard to distinguish between early Class 1 of Henry II and early Class 5 of John. Both have the stop after the S of hENRICVS and a similar portrait structure. The poor condition of the piece doesn't help as it makes the hair not possible to see. I was wondering if anyone here could help to push me in the right direction. Thank you.

Thanks to Chris my old page is now available at https://www.predecimal.com/GIII/

Again, I can only recommend Galata's excellent tome on the pennies of the Edwards. Real research has been done there. All Paul and Bente's writing is of the highest quality by a pair who know their stuff, and as references will struggle to be equalled. Go for it. Splash the cash. You won't regret it. Incidentally, I also have a set of North, vols. 1 & 2, both new. £40 per volume or £70 the pair pus postage. PM me if interested. Thanks.

I have a few colonial coins that are in need of sorting out, today this was fished out of the pot of others, I'm pleased I did as after a warm soapy soak (and it was well minging!!!) all of the circulation hand grease and crud washed off left the coin's details come out. its pretty good for a Victorian Colonial...👍 unsure of the grade but better than just good... 27 berries, W.W. raised.

If that is mm spacing then a farthing. Makes sense given the weights. Old sterling pennies were 1.4g down to 1g ish, so 1/4g =1/4 penny. Do you have any reference books? Just wondering because by Eliz.1 the penny was about 0.5g, but that had declined over a long period. Coin values are determined by the diameter of the inner circle because the outer one is too susceptible to spreading when struck. Rules for the future: 1. Get a Withers small change book. 2. Get a Withers small change book. 3. Get a Withers small change book. 4. Get a Withers small change book. 5. Get a Withers small change book. The surplus suggestions are to cover the 4 periods contained within the volume set, and allow me to book some copy and paste replies without having to make any other contributions. They cover Ed1 - Ed.2; Ed.3-R1; Henry 4-6;Ed.4 - Henry 7 and Henry 8-Commonwealth. You don't have to buy every one at the same time unless they are offering a discount to clear some stock. It is the best reference available and is regularly updated. Worse advise (sic) is available on ebay from some aspiring millionaire who found this in granny's change the other day, conveniently overlooking the moneyer Grunal. Hint. This is Dave Greenhalgh's name for coins he has made, (legitimately for the purpose of demonstrating hammered minting techniques).

Aha..and as I have read.....it came about due to King Charles I was executed for high treason in 1649, after a civil war pitting his supporters against Parliament for control of the country...... 🤔

No problem. I do have a scanner. Hp Evny 4525. Think it's up to the job. I will dig it out and dust it off and scan it for you tommorow. Thank you for taking the time to look at it. Stu.

Another somewhat crude group C die - fairly common - Here's a better example.

Yes, definitely a contemporary forgery (very common) of a silver skin clad onto a base metal core - the core is corroding and bursting through in places which is causing those greyer-looking patches and random protrusions through the silver skin. So, no scrap value at all to speak of, but an interesting bit of social history and probably worth keeping thus.

Seemed as good a place as any as bought the Halfpenny from the last LCA with obverse 1.

Great. Message me and we'll sort out the technicalities.

That's sad. I lost my mum to a brain tumour in 2021. By the time she was diagnosed it was stage 4. Three months she lived from diagnosis to passing away. Affected us all deeply. Thank you for replying. I look forward to seeing your future research when you are publishing your findings. Stu.

Poor Gary, but absolutely fantastic that you’re still around and working with the counterfeit coinage. Nice to hear from you.

Hi Guys! I'm still around but haven't had much time for coin study lately. Gary was about to start a new cancer treatment which unfortunately proved to be in vain. As he knew he might not be recovering, he offered me to buy his collection of counterfeit George IIIs shillings at a very fair price. So I jumped on a plane and spend a pleasant evening with him where we wrapped the coins in rolls with paper and looked at some of his vast collection. Next morning the very day he would start the new treatment, I returned to Denmark - and never heard from him again. I haven't yet had a chance to look at the coins, of which there are apparently over a thousand. Instead, I've been working with my own collection in the hope of being able to refine the group divisions and perhaps arrive at a more correct classification for the whole series. Only when that's finished, I will start classifying Gary's coins.

I believe their local council is to rename Wells-next-the-Sea as Wells-in-the-Sea?

J G Scott wrote a book in 1975 about c/mks on Copper and bronze coins which I retained when I acquired DRJ's collection. I will see if I can find it tomorrow night and post what is useful.

Is it possible there's a hint of a remaining crossbar, as highlighted below?

Starting off, I owe you all a big Thank You...I came here 1 year ago and was recovering from a stroke... my reading and speaking has got better and my chaos has improved as well.... to a degree. Ive attached some photos of what's been paged and has put some order in place.... if the worse happen I'd hate to think what would have happen to these coins... The hammered coins (pennies) still cause problems for me and still there others to follow.... Sorry! 😟 once again a huge Thank You one and all for the support and clarification when assisting my queries, I wouldn't have been able to have got this far without it. Kind Regards "H"

I think people get a bit worked up over the question of cleaning as the topic is somewhat nuanced. Every coin in circulation showing signs of wear has effectively been cleaned because the act of circulation ensures that contact is made with other surfaces which rub against each other. i.e. nothing different to taking a the use of chemical cloth to a coin and rubbing. That just speeds up the process. The only thing that is offensive in the eyes of most collectors is a case of a polished coin, with or without the use of chemical substances. Personally I love toning for the fact it gives added confidence that the surfaces have not been messed about with, but even that has a few caveats because silver dip will leave a residue on the coin which over time will give the piece in question a typically pinkish hue. Any coin in someone's pocket will end up from friction with lots of faint parallel lines, because they were there. Without polishing chemically, I defy anyone to see the difference between pocket rub and a soft cloth, though clearly it would be possible in the case of demonetised coins to use your loaf and conclude that not being in circulation any more, the only option left is deliberate. In the case of the Morgan above, if the surfaces aren't reflective, probably not other than 'cleaning' from circulation, because there is clearly wear to the high points.

I remember a documentary in the 1960s showing the young royals preparing for Christmas decorating a tree. Anne was up a ladder and Andrew was trying to climb up with her. She turned on him and ordered "Geroutovit!" loudly. She obviously spotted a wrong'un early on!

My Grandfather,

OK - in the Phaidon series by Elizabeth Hallam as editor I find I also have "Chronicles of the Wars of the Roses" which covers Richard II in 1377 to Richard III in 1485. By Publisher Heinemann and collated by Anne Savage there is a great translation of "the Anglo Saxon Chronicles", which covers from the end of the Roman occupation to Henry II. I find this particularly useful as many TV documentaries quote the Anglo Saxon Chronicles in snippets, so it is good to be able to see them in full translation. (The chronicles were written by a series of monks over hundreds of years in old English, and were usually recorded withing only a few years of the actual events, so reasonably contemporaneous.)

Hi, yes - it's the JH replacement (second) type.

Of course the fish tail could simply be damage? The lettering of the coin is pretty distinctive, however, so finding the monarch should be quite doable!

Liz is the one i meant when i said chris rudd. She's running his website & sales. She will do free evaluations for people. Get in touch with her and let us know her verdict. Sorry to sound sceptical but i often see fake coins with unusual pairings for sale on ebay. It's a common theme done on purpose so you cannot compare the coin to an original to pick out the differences. I see it quite often with fake styca & sceatta. Anyway good luck and keep us posted.

I had these coin folders for most of my collection that I didn't trust the plastic in. So I bought new binder and some better sheets like I've been using for my shilling run and transferred everything over today. While moving the Elizabeth II sets - both l/s/d & decimal - I noticed something that struck me as interesting. Back when the UK changed to decimal, the new 5p & 10p were made the size and weight of the shilling and florin respectively. That ended in 1990 and then over the next couple of years the 5p, 10p, and 50p were made physically smaller. Also in there though the £1 coins and the £2 coins were introduced. The bi-metal £1 is essentially the same diameter and just a bit heavier than a shilling was. The bi-metal £2 coin is almost exactly the size and weight of the florin. I looked at the value of the 1966 shilling at the Bank of England's inflation calculator and even more humorously, the shillings buying power then was £0.82 in December of 2025 - a florin equaling £1.74 now. Not too far off from £1 & £2 pound coins! Perhaps the UK should introduce a circulating £5 coin of 32.5mm and 14.14 grams... ? 🤣

Gotta love the large pennies from early in the reign of Victoria: