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A well known variety. See screenshot from Michael Gouby's website below. Typically a master die in the Victorian period had just the 18.. pre-entered on it, and from that working dies were made that then had the last 2 digits hand entered. (This is behind all the date width varieties for example on Victorian bun pennies). For 1857 shillings, one working die had the last two digits entered with numeral punches from the wrong font thus causing the example above.

The 'ribbon' on this 1859 is die clashing, explained on Gouby's website, where he now also references Peck 404. The 'overlay' picture below also highlights the 'clash' area.

Bawbees are notorious for having circulated deep into the 18th century by which time they were barely identifiable - so this rather decent 1679 example is an exception to the beater bawbee rule.

By way of introducing myself let me tell you about my favorite coin in my collection. I had been collecting bronze penny coins since I was a young boy. Then, in 1975 I rode my brand new motorbike the nine miles to the Somerset town of Frome. In a junk shop on Catherine’s Hill I saw two coins displayed in the window. I thought that the smaller one looked like an old penny. I did not know what the larger coin was as I had never seen the like before. They were offered as two Victoria copper coins from 1858. They were priced at £6.50 and £7.50 respectively, a lot of money in those days. I decided to buy the smaller, cheaper penny sized coin. When I got home I looked it up in my 'Check Your Change’ book and found that at 28.4 mm in diameter the coin was in fact a half penny. I got straight back on my bike and returned to Frome for the other coin which proved to be a penny at 34mm diameter. On closer inspection I realised that the number 8 was struck over a number 7. At the time I thought that I had discovered something special. It turns out that I had not. They were very nice coins though, and kindled my interest in copper pennies, halfpennies and farthings.

Agreed. That was one of the first things i noticed about it. The full one i bought just arrived today. The portrait is a bit scuffed but i can't complain as it was cheap. Looks like a match with my half. Slevin 1a5 / Brand 1050. Stu.

Four Pence Victorian 1840 & 1877 (Maundy) Delving through the hoard today...... and these two I though were worth a show as they are in incredible condition.... which is a bit of a rarity amongst my lot.... 😲

The reverse lis and lions sit distinctively high in their respective quarters…I did find this, which belongs to an anchor obverse. I guess we’ll have to wait and see!

I particularly like the 1860/59 tie ribbons (plural)............always present in same place + further clashing under Victoria's chin.

I don’t like using proprietary products because I don’t know what’s in them, and I believe VerdiCare is difficult to obtain in the UK anyway. After some research on what the British Museum used to use to treat bronze disease and verdigris on large objects, like cannon, I tried the technique for myself on this battered 1799 half-penny. For anyone interested, the treatment was 100 minutes at 90°C in a 2% w/w solution of sodium sesquicarbonate in chlorine-free water. Followed by a rinse in chlorine-free water to remove the chemical and then a rinse in acetone to remove the water. The heat is needed as the reaction is impossibly slow at room temperature.

It's exactly the same - they haven't changed a thing.

It is rough but i think there is enough information to identify it. I can read VND + PIE i think. Which would make it Pieres at London Mint. Spink guide shows Pieres & Pieres M minting at London during class 1 under Henry II. Stu.

This is a fairly common contemporary counterfeit. J015o / I801r in my current system. It's connected to a number of other dies of various groups - it's the 7th coin in this die chain

Sifting through my bits and bobs and came across this one. Not listed in any books that i can find so one to mark down. Maybe a complete example will turn up one day who knows. Its a 1a4 obverse with the Seriffed X and a 1a3 reverse with a nice square E. Hvnfrei at York mint.

So the reason of asking is if a coin is rare its condition goes by the side a little... this crown although its seen circulation is in quite good condition.... details are legible and minor rubbing... where would this Crown sit on the grade scale?

I agree that halfs and quarters are often in almost perfect condition because they were easily lost soon after they entered circulation. I too look for nice examples, scarcer mints, errors, etc. and enjoy the challenge of identifying them. This is one of my favourites. Walter (Waltier error) on Northampton, square E's on obverse (round on reverse), class 1a2/1a5 mule, possibly Mass 148, although the X looks different.

In my experience there are 4 different obverse dies which have been altered to 1848/7. These are illustrated in the pictures below. Whilst Bramah does not have any pictures to illustrate his type 10b, he says the following in his 1929 book:- "The die has been altered from 1847. The 7 shows very plainly beneath the 8, its up-stroke dividing the lower loop of 8 into two unequal parts, that on the left being much the smaller." Interestingly, I have found two different obverse dies which fit Bramah's 10b description. These are the top two pictures shown below. Surprisingly, these Bramah 10b types do not appear on Gouby’s website. Bramah 10c / Gouby C (bottom left) is probably the most common of the 8/7’s Gouby D (bottom right), with the 7 at back of bottom loop of the 8, I think is the rarest type……and probably why Bramah has missed this variety. Gouby Ca and Cb are doubled examples of his variety C I believe his Da is simply a worn example of his type D. He actually remarks upon this himself i.e. "Possibly a worn version of D !?" If anyone wishes to see additional detailed legend pictures to support any of the above then please feel free to contact me.

Forgetting the grade, the good thing about it for me is that there are no major digs or edge knocks/bruises, etc., making it a collectable fine too. Potentially your most valuable coin to-date?

Another unlisted one. Sadly it's in sold listings on ebay. But worth noting down for reference if you like that sort of thing Reads Her instead of Hen on the obverse. Think its class 1b1 Rodbert at Winchester.

Today more sorting out and I found a shilling its dated 1857, on magnifying it highlighted that the numbers were different sizes the 7 has a few blobs deformation to it as well ... possibly done at the mint with numbers changed as worn out?

It's definitely a London coin, but not class 1 or Henry II because the N and D are ligated (joined together). If memory serves me right that feature first occurred on class IVa, which was issued under Richard I, but the lettering style isn't right for that. My guess would be class V or VI (so John or Henry III) and judging by the position of the O of ON probably a moneyer with five letters in his name. A bit more research could probably tie the class and maybe even the moneyer down a bit. Edit: you beat me to it Ukstu; I was glancing through my copies of Mass and Slevin for inspiration, but we seem to broadly agree on class 5 or 6.

Obviously this bawbee from King William III from 1697 circulated as a halfpenny deep into the 18th century given it's wear pattern

Not the best example but an unusual pairing. Withers 411 Bradford Workhouse counterstamp on a Samuel Fereday Bilston token.

The verdigris may not show very well in the photo. Below is another "before" photo under different light. Work is in progress on coins with more obvious/stubborn verdigris. I will report back!

Hello all. I am having some difficulties with this halved short cross penny. Specifically I am finding it hard to distinguish between early Class 1 of Henry II and early Class 5 of John. Both have the stop after the S of hENRICVS and a similar portrait structure. The poor condition of the piece doesn't help as it makes the hair not possible to see. I was wondering if anyone here could help to push me in the right direction. Thank you.

Thanks to Chris my old page is now available at https://www.predecimal.com/GIII/

Again, I can only recommend Galata's excellent tome on the pennies of the Edwards. Real research has been done there. All Paul and Bente's writing is of the highest quality by a pair who know their stuff, and as references will struggle to be equalled. Go for it. Splash the cash. You won't regret it. Incidentally, I also have a set of North, vols. 1 & 2, both new. £40 per volume or £70 the pair pus postage. PM me if interested. Thanks.

I have a few colonial coins that are in need of sorting out, today this was fished out of the pot of others, I'm pleased I did as after a warm soapy soak (and it was well minging!!!) all of the circulation hand grease and crud washed off left the coin's details come out. its pretty good for a Victorian Colonial...👍 unsure of the grade but better than just good... 27 berries, W.W. raised.

If that is mm spacing then a farthing. Makes sense given the weights. Old sterling pennies were 1.4g down to 1g ish, so 1/4g =1/4 penny. Do you have any reference books? Just wondering because by Eliz.1 the penny was about 0.5g, but that had declined over a long period. Coin values are determined by the diameter of the inner circle because the outer one is too susceptible to spreading when struck. Rules for the future: 1. Get a Withers small change book. 2. Get a Withers small change book. 3. Get a Withers small change book. 4. Get a Withers small change book. 5. Get a Withers small change book. The surplus suggestions are to cover the 4 periods contained within the volume set, and allow me to book some copy and paste replies without having to make any other contributions. They cover Ed1 - Ed.2; Ed.3-R1; Henry 4-6;Ed.4 - Henry 7 and Henry 8-Commonwealth. You don't have to buy every one at the same time unless they are offering a discount to clear some stock. It is the best reference available and is regularly updated. Worse advise (sic) is available on ebay from some aspiring millionaire who found this in granny's change the other day, conveniently overlooking the moneyer Grunal. Hint. This is Dave Greenhalgh's name for coins he has made, (legitimately for the purpose of demonstrating hammered minting techniques).

Aha..and as I have read.....it came about due to King Charles I was executed for high treason in 1649, after a civil war pitting his supporters against Parliament for control of the country...... 🤔

No problem. I do have a scanner. Hp Evny 4525. Think it's up to the job. I will dig it out and dust it off and scan it for you tommorow. Thank you for taking the time to look at it. Stu.

Another somewhat crude group C die - fairly common - Here's a better example.

Starting off, I owe you all a big Thank You...I came here 1 year ago and was recovering from a stroke... my reading and speaking has got better and my chaos has improved as well.... to a degree. Ive attached some photos of what's been paged and has put some order in place.... if the worse happen I'd hate to think what would have happen to these coins... The hammered coins (pennies) still cause problems for me and still there others to follow.... Sorry! 😟 once again a huge Thank You one and all for the support and clarification when assisting my queries, I wouldn't have been able to have got this far without it. Kind Regards "H"

I think people get a bit worked up over the question of cleaning as the topic is somewhat nuanced. Every coin in circulation showing signs of wear has effectively been cleaned because the act of circulation ensures that contact is made with other surfaces which rub against each other. i.e. nothing different to taking a the use of chemical cloth to a coin and rubbing. That just speeds up the process. The only thing that is offensive in the eyes of most collectors is a case of a polished coin, with or without the use of chemical substances. Personally I love toning for the fact it gives added confidence that the surfaces have not been messed about with, but even that has a few caveats because silver dip will leave a residue on the coin which over time will give the piece in question a typically pinkish hue. Any coin in someone's pocket will end up from friction with lots of faint parallel lines, because they were there. Without polishing chemically, I defy anyone to see the difference between pocket rub and a soft cloth, though clearly it would be possible in the case of demonetised coins to use your loaf and conclude that not being in circulation any more, the only option left is deliberate. In the case of the Morgan above, if the surfaces aren't reflective, probably not other than 'cleaning' from circulation, because there is clearly wear to the high points.

I remember a documentary in the 1960s showing the young royals preparing for Christmas decorating a tree. Anne was up a ladder and Andrew was trying to climb up with her. She turned on him and ordered "Geroutovit!" loudly. She obviously spotted a wrong'un early on!

My Grandfather,

wow....so its wrong font...Awesome to know this.. it looked odd so now all explained. many thanks for this👍

looking at the Half penny's that I have , like yours the details are still very vivid also being silver you'd think that they'd been cashed in melted down and re used ... Ive found 5 Halves that I have ...as yet no quarters, Hopefully others will join in, it will be of interest.... 👍

The 1859 is interesting, not a deliberate ‘ribbon’ I suspect, perhaps a die flaw or foreign body impact or result of die clash but if more than a ‘one off’ could become collectable though probably not at a massive premium. The 1858 small date is scarce rather than rare, unless combined with large rose reverse which yours is not. Maybe a small premium over large date but value is low I think due to poor condition. Jerry

Hi, Newby to the site, first post. I have an 1859 penny, with a variant that I cannot find much information on. “ Tie ribbon between curl and neck” Also there is no W.W., not sure if this as standard. I would be grateful is someone could give me an idea of rarity, grade and value? I also have recently got an 1858 small date, again would like an idea of grade, rarity and value.

If anyone is still after this let me know i have a digital copy you can have. Stu.

Hi, yes - it's the JH replacement (second) type.

Last year was the first issue under new ownership I think. There was a fair amount of chat about it on here at the time. I know I made sure I had a 2024 copy before the change in case they knackered it!

the Half Crowns

So LSD is pre jimmi hendrix?

Yes, as Rob says, a farthing not a halfpenny. With the beaded inner-circle on both sides, as well as the Civitas legend, makes this class 28 onwards. The high crown, with that classic axe-like left fleur and, of course, the bust, plus the broken-topped angle-backed E, makes this most certainly a London Type 30 farthing of Edward II

To be fair, the chaos doesn't ever seem to subside. Sometimes you need to part ways with it for a while to regain the will to try and overcome it.