Jester

As I mention in my signature, one of the coins I'm working to collect is the Sixpence from 1838-1910. While I've recently purchased The English Silver Coinage from 1649 and British Silver Coins, I was hoping a more seasoned Sixpence collector or just a long-time collector in general would let me know if there was a book/guide specifically geared towards Sixpences (or at least as a major theme in the tome). Another quick question that's been bugging me since starting on this journey. Let me give an example...the 1904 and 1905 Edward VII Sixpences are Rare and Scarce respectively. OK, I can verify that in multiple sources...but WHY? The 1905 Edward VII Half Crown is rare in high grade. OK, I can see that through Forums and dealer availability...but WHY? I tried every Google search I could think of to learn more about why the 1904 and 1905 EVII 6Ps are hard to come by and came up with nothing. Is this just knowledge you'll pick up over time? Is the explanation found more in history versus numismatics? My goal is to not only put together an impressive collection but to also become a more educated, informed collector. Any feedback/recommendations is greatly appreciated. Thanks all!

Ha! Why can't individuals get in on the fun? NGC and PCGS, you're on notice...there's a new kid on the block. The slabs can be purchased on eBay and the label looks like it was done on a home printer...sad. You know I enjoy TPG coins but even this makes me shake my head. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Isle-of-Man-Farthing-1839-AU-KM-12/142550029480?hash=item2130a4d4a8:g:lnoAAOSwySRZ0sj4

I was really excited to send my first two Sixpences purchased off to NGC for grading (a 1909 and 1910 EdVII). They were in high grade (pAS) and I was hopeful of a high MS for both. Here are images of the raw coins... I checked NGC's site yesterday and the grades had come back. The 1909 received a MS 63+ and the 1910 a UNC Details - Surface Hairlines. As this was the first Details grade I'd ever received for a coin submitted to NGC, my general attitude could best be described as the sound of air quickly rushing out of a balloon. Here are images of the graded coins from NGC (strange lighting on the coins)... So my question to you good people is this, "What do I do with this?" What would you do? I'm working to build a graded date run and I'm not sure I want the final year of the run to be an UNC Details coin. Do you keep this as part of the run or now go back out and buy another? I'm a bit gun-shy about buying raw again as both of these coins looked great and came from a reputable dealer. I (and I think I speak for "we") spend hard-earned money and a good deal of it for these coins and as I see it, when it comes back in Details grade, I feel the value isn't there anymore for the money spent. Are Details grades from TPG's just the random landmines we have to accept from time to time when collecting numismatics? I'm interested in your thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to read and comment.

I think your Caps Lock got stuck there for a sec ...my apologies, I was trying to assist.

Wow...I had no idea you could buy coins using Facebook. Can anyone recommend pages/groups they use/frequent? Another interesting buying alternative that's getting off the ground here in the U.S. is Great Collections (www.greatcollections.com). It combines aspects of a traditional auction house with those of eBay and it's for coins and currency only. For example, eBay gets a straight 10% of the final sales prices from the seller while the buyers pay nothing more than the winning bid plus any shipping costs. Then, PayPal wants their 3% of your sales price. So as a seller, go ahead and knock 13% off the winning bid. Great Collections on the other hand only takes 5% from the seller (nothing if the final sales price is over $1,000) but the buyer pays a 10% buyer's premium. Great Collections mails checks to the sellers so the 3% taken from PayPal is also eliminated. So it's really a win-win. Great Collections gets to put a bit of coin in their pocket, the seller is only losing 5% (at most) of the final sales prices versus 13% and the buyers/collectors get access to some nice coins without having to pay the 20+% buyer's premium that traditional auction houses charge. One caveat...all coins sold on Great Collections are slabbed/graded (I can actually hear multiple eyes rolling from across the Atlantic ). The nice thing is if you want to sell your coins on Great Collections (versus eBay) but they're raw and you don't have a TPG account, you can send them to Great Collections and they'll have them sent to the TPG they believe will yield the best grade and ultimately, sale. It's mostly U.S. coins which I like because once a week or so, I'll go to the site and type "Great Britain" in the search field. Since the majority of bidders are there for U.S. coins, I've picked up a few nice numismatic British coins at a bargain. Not sure if they ship overseas but if you find something you must have, I'd be happy to facilitate getting it to you and at the lowest possible shipping cost. I've started doing this as a favor to help out my numismatic brothers and sisters on TSF as many U.S. based dealers don't ship overseas or if they do they charge an arm and a leg (I'm a strong believer in Karma). Anywho...if you all can point me to a FB group selling coins you like, I'd be most grateful. Hope you all are having a great weekend! - Carson (Jester)

I think you may be missing a digit or two. I plugged 432498 into the PCGS Registration Verification page and this is what came back...

Thanks for the feedback Pete. Yeah, I figured while I look for the right Low Tide Halfpenny, I'd pick up a nice High Tide to fill the 1902 Halfpenny spot. One thing to keep in mind is while the 1902 High Tide may be common and can easily be found in high grade /well struck quite cheaply in the UK, it's a different story on this side of the pond. And while I do enjoy buying from British dealers, the trans-Atlantic shipping can sometimes make it more cost effective to pick up something like this example from a reputable American auction house like Heritage (the winning bid was $32 [£24.44] before the juice). Think about Morgan Silver Dollars. I could make it rain Morgan Silver Dollars if I wanted to but from what I understand, they're a bit harder to put hands on in Europe. Not saying you can't get them but I can walk in any LCS and they'll have a large selection. Trying to find this 1902 Halfpenny though in my neck of the woods could be an exercise in futility. Pricing can vary depending on what you want. The slabbed/graded 2017 1/10 oz Gold BU Libertad I shared in another thread had the special Mexico label (an extra $5) and a scratch-resistant slab (an extra $5) on top of the standard grading fee of $17 for Modern coins (US or world coins 1955 to present [no patterns, die trials, etc.]. Maximum value $2,000). Plus a standard $8 handling fee plus return postage. I was essentially prepping that coin for marketing knowing what spending a bit more might yield in return. For the numismatic coins we collect, you'd select the Standard grading tier (All US or world coins. Maximum value $3,000/each) and that's $35 for world coins along with the $8 handling fee and return postage. I usually select the standard brown label without the scratch-resistant slab option to keep costs down. So it can be pretty costly to submit one coin at a time for grading but some of the costs (the handling fee and shipping) can be dispersed if larger submission are made. That's one of the reasons The Silver Forum puts together their group submissions that brings shipping down to a negligible amount and the handling fee pretty much disappears. If we look back at that 1902 EdVII Halfpenny I picked up, I paid $51 all in. If I had a raw specimen sent in for grading 1) I can have an educated idea what it should grade at but as we've recently discussed, there are no guarantees and 2) it'd cost me conservatively $40 just to have it graded. So picking up a nice MS 63 RB already graded for $51 shipped was worth it to me. I hope that helps. Thanks again for your feedback Pete. Always a pleasure talking with you! Have a great Friday afternoon.

Another for my EdVII 1902...Looking at Spink 2017, I think I got this for a good price tonight at auction. Paid $51 total including buyers premium. Nice looking coin in my opinion.

Just want to say I've really enjoyed this conversation. I hope my perspective has been interesting (at a minimum not a snooze-fest) and I've learned quite a bit from your input. While I've never been of the opinion that the folks at NGC and PCGS are coin grading gods/goddesses, as I've seen and heard of a number of mistakes they've made and will likely continue making, I was unaware that they misattribute coins and varieties. I will certainly have to view slabbed coin sales more critically looking for those opportunities. Thanks to each of you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Completely agree with you Mike regarding NGC/PCGS graders. I am not of the opinion that they are infallible and never make mistakes. In the same breath, I do not believe these companies are pulling people off the street corner and giving them jobs as coin graders. I also agree with you regarding the mark-up on slabbed coins over raw. However, as long as the disparity exists and collectors are willing to pay the elevated prices, I'll look to profit from it when the opportunity presents itself...Vive la Capitalism!

Thanks for the feedback. I truly appreciate your candor and concern. I've got quite a bit of experience with slabbing coins as well as selling them for profit. My most recent transaction was a 2017 1/10 oz Gold BU Libertad purchased early August for about $250 followed about a month later with a 2017 1/20 oz Gold Proof Libertad for $120. Both were going to be key coins based on the estimated mintages for the 2017 Gold Libertad series. I sent them off to NGC for grading. The 1/10 oz BU came back MS 69 (see below) which is a good result given that BdM sends their BU coins out in bags. The 1/20 oz Proof, as you'd expect/hope came back PF 70 UC (see below). I sold the 1/10 oz on 10/05, about two months after purchase, for $750 and the 1/20 oz on 10/12, about a month after purchase, for $300. So my total outlay, including grading was about $470 and after eBay/PayPal fees I cleared a profit of $443, essentially doubling my money in less than two months. Obviously that type of example doesn't happen every week but if you watch for the right opportunity, it can be quite profitable. If a more numismatic example is desired, I picked up a 1807 African Head Napoleon 1/4F from the DNW auction in June. I think the adjustment mark (which occurred at the Paris Mint) scared bidders away and I picked it up for about £170 ($225) including buyer's premium. I sent it to NGC for grading and it came back AU 58 (see below). Looking up this coin in the Standard Catalog of World Coins 1801 - 1900, it's valued at $500 in VF40 so it's reasonable to say it's somewhere north of $500 given the grade and rarity (only 41,000 were minted in 1807 before Napoleon shut it down) with only four coins in higher grade between NGC and PCGS combined. No sales price realized as I haven't sold it yet but it'll be going to Heritage Auctions next week so we'll see! I have my raw coins slabbed and graded simply because I like slabbed and graded coins. Certainly not using it as a crutch in place of learning how to grade (and I'm definitely still learning). Again, thank you for your feedback. I always enjoy hearing other members' opinions and perspectives.

Gotcha...so there are multiple rarity rating scales with different rating criteria? Ugh. Love for it to be like the Hobbit...one scale to rule them all.

IMO, Michael Marsh, author of The Gold Sovereign, has an easy to understand rarity rating guide although I'm not sure if different rarity rating scales are used with specific coins (it would obviously be Sovereigns in this case): C3 - Extremely Common C2 - Very Common C - Common N - Normal S - Scarce R - Rare R2 - Very Rare R3 - Extremely Rare R4 - 11 - 20 examples estimated to have survived R5 - 5 - 10 examples estimated to have survived R6 - 3 or 4 examples known to exist R7 - 1 or 2 examples known to exist Just another data point for consideration...

Just wanted to share a few thoughts after reading through discussions elsewhere on the Forum where some members seem to take issue with what is called an "American" phenomenon when talking about TPGs and slabbing/grading coins. Hey, maybe this did open a can of worms and Pandora's box all at the same time Another large, active coin forum on the Interweb is The Silver Forum. As many of you already know, it's a UK-based forum with the majority of its membership being western Europeans (mostly British) with a sprinkling of us Yanks and some Asian collectors. One of the most active threads across the entire forum is "NGC Grading Submissions Open" where forum members can send their raw numismatic/modern coins (sometimes in bulk) to one member who coordinates periodic, large group, submissions to NGC (God bless him for having the constitution and patience to do that). Keeping in mind that 85+% of forum members are British and EU collectors, I believe it's reasonable to say there are plenty of folks on your side of the pond as well that enjoy and find value in collecting slabbed coins. Long-standing, well-respected European auction houses are beginning to offer more coins at auction already slabbed and graded. In fact, here's a case study for us all to follow and I find this truly interesting because we can objectively track this and have follow-up discussion after it's over. I was perusing the preview catalogue for the DNW "Coins, Historical Medals & Paper Money" auction to take place on 13 & 14 December 2017. I'm looking to acquire an 1887 Crown for my denomination year set. To my pleasant surprise they already have two that will be auctioned, both in high grade. Something caught my eye though...one is in "About As Struck" condition and the other is "Almost As Struck". Both look nearly identical but the About As Struck coin has an estimate of £1200 - £1500 while the Almost As Struck is estimated at £120 - £150. That can't be right. There's no way there's that much difference between "About" and "Almost" to warrant that kind of disparity. Surely it's a typo on the About As Struck coin, it too must be £120 -£150. So I clicked on the About As Struck to see if there was any additional information and lo and behold..."slabbed NGC MS 64". So virtually the same coin almost down to identical appearance and because one is raw stating it's UNC and the other coin has been "verified" MS it will likely sell for ten times as much. If I'm a coin dealer and I can sell an 1887 Crown for £120 - £150 raw stating "About As Struck" or I can spend about £30 more of my own money and if the exact same coin comes back mid to upper MS grade it'll sell either in my shop or at auction for £1200 - £1500 (and the market will bear it, i.e., clients are willing to pay you £1200), I'll likely pursue that business model. Some may say, so what? This proves nothing. A fool and his money are quickly parted. The argument as I've seen it here is that the only people benefiting from slabbing/grading coins are the TPGs themselves. I think this would show otherwise. If you're a collector who has no interest in the future investment potential of the coins you decide collect then this may be irrelevant. So we'll see, right? It'll be interesting to track "The Tale of Two Crowns" and come back together on 15/12/17 to discuss. In closing, did slabbing/grading start in America? I assume so but I'm not 100% on that. Is there a higher concentration in the U.S. of collectors who prefer slabbed/graded coins? I'd concede that. Am I butt hurt that when critical opinions are given of slabbed/graded coins sometimes there's "American" also in the comment? No. I just want to put forward that this phenomenon isn't geographically isolated to one population of collectors. I'm also a huge fan of "to each his own" and I really appreciate and value different opinions and perspectives. So I'm interested in your thoughts. Has this piqued your interest or curiosity at all? Love to hear your take.

Thanks so much for your feedback @Leo. Really enjoying the 1902 hunt. I think the biggest expense will be the low sea level Halfpenny and Penny in high grade. The third farthing was for Malta, right? I thought it was an interesting coin and I was able to pick it up for about $25 shipped so I thought, why not (while working on the other 1902 coins). Thanks again for your comments.

OK, maybe these are a bit more interesting. Just finalized the purchase so wanted to wait until that happened before posting. 1902 Crown 1902 Florin

Nothing to blow your mind but I picked up the 1902 1/3 Farthing in good condition as part of my 1902 denomination year set.

Thanks for the feedback and your willingness to see my point of view. Perhaps "guarantees" was too strong a word. Here's the short process I step through when contemplating the purchase of a slabbed coin from an online site be it dealer or eBay. First and foremost, I will not buy a slabbed coin if the seller will not show or disclose the registration number. If the coin is graded by either NGC or PCGS, you can visit the TPGs website where they have a Registration Certification page. There you can type in the registration ID found on the slab's label. If I can magnify the images on both sites, a certainty with the TPGs and most often on a site like eBay, and compare the attributes of the coin and they're a match, I can feel relatively confident that the coin I'm buying is the one the TPG graded and slabbed. In the end, I personally feel better about purchasing a TPG slabbed coin from a site like eBay that I can reasonably verify versus taking a chance on its raw counterpart. You're right though, nothing is a guarantee.

Interesting perspective and I appreciate your opinion. Here's the challenge I have. Take someone who is relatively new to coin collecting (see the moniker above my avatar) and who has few resources in their surrounding location to learn more about the hobby. Where do you turn? As I see it, you have two options (well, three but the third is folly), books, the Internet or simply forge ahead without educating yourself. I've found some decent written material on the Internet to try and glean information from but if you find yourself on YouTube, every Tom, Dick or Harry with a camera and conviction in their voice is a numismatic expert ready to tell you everything you should know. So my preference is books. While I don't plan to carry this particular book around like my Bible, I think/hope the value it will bring me comes from seeing multiples of the same coin in various conditions. Look at it from a novice's point of view...let's say I'm going to buy a 1902 Crown and the raw coin is graded EF by a LCS or slabbed AU 58 from the TPG. How would the coin collector just learning know if the coin has been accurately graded by either? What if there's just slight wear to Edward's hair and beard? What if there's no wear but a rim nick? What if there's the slightest wear to his hair and a bag mark in the field? What if there's just the faintest of surface scratches and none of the other attributes? When taking just these types of wear/damage in all the possible combinations as well as others not listed, it can leave the novice feeling like they're standing at the base of Everest looking up and they're simply being told, "climb". And that's not even considering getting into micro-grading EF+, aEF, gEF, etc. I say all that to say I'm attempting to find as many books as I can on the subject to help me in this learning process. If there are others I should be focused on acquiring and learning from, I'm absolutely open to suggestions and recommendations. Thanks again for your feedback. It gives me another perspective when looking for source material.

Thanks all for the responses. I guess as the OP, I'll share my thoughts on graded/slabbed coins and why I like them, why I buy some already slabbed and why I buy some raw and have them graded. Personally, I like the look and presentation of slabbed coins. I don't have the tactile need to fondle them....didn't grandma warn you about playing with things too much? I like how they store as well. Whether you're a fan of NGC or PCGS or both, for a relatively low cost you can buy their hard plastic storage boxes that keep your collection well organized. Slabbing also protects your coin/investment better than any other form of storage I can think of. At a minimum, buying a coin already slabbed/graded guarantees authenticity. There are a few coin collectors I respect who specialize in very different types of coins and in following them on social media, I've watched them send some of their acquisitions off to TPGs only to have the occasional coin returned in a baggy, not a slab, identified as "Not Authentic". Tells me it can happen to anyone. In my opinion, I think coin collecting can be an "And" opportunity and not just an "Either/Or". I collect coins because I enjoy collecting things, I love the history behind the coins, it brings personal satisfaction (well, not that Details coin) and I look at them as potential investments hopefully making good decisions so should I choose to sell later in life, I can put a little extra coin in my pocket. I don't believe it has to be one or the other. I've heard some say that "collectors" that buy graded coins are lazy and don't want to invest the time or make the commitment to educate themselves on how to grade coins. While I'm sure those individuals exist, I prefer to buy coins raw, educating myself as I go along, and then have them graded kinda like @youliveyoulean said testing my ability to accurately grade a coin and hopefully add value by purchasing the high grade raw coin cheaper than you could the one that's already graded. In fact, I just picked this up to enhance my understanding of what to be looking for when examining a prospective purchase... So those are just a few of my thoughts on the subject. @PWA 1967, I like your idea about studying the 1910 Details to better understand why it received that designation in the first place. Thanks to each of you for your thoughts and feedback. In my opinion, regardless of your preference, the discourse is certainly more interesting with different approaches and perspectives. Have a great rest of the weekend.

I was tired...but good catch nonetheless.

Lol, I know...pretty boneheaded. I was preoccupied with the auction last night both before and after; I was pretty amped up. I really wanted to pick up those two early Victoria sixpences and there were a lot of potential bidders tracking the sales (see "My Latest Acquisition"). I'm better today...promise

Bookending my 1838 - 1910 Sixpences with a few fine examples picked up tonight. 1938 1939, Top Pop at both NGC and PCGS

Corresponded with DNW, unfortunately they do not archive hard copies of past auctions. I can imagine the space needed to do so but I assumed for some of their more significant auctions they might. I've searched eBay but no luck there either. I did find the auction results online, some with the photos. All I could do was shake my head at some of the prices realized thinking about what those same coins would go for today. I'd love to obtain a hard copy. Are there dealers known for selling old auction guides from the major houses?

Thank you both for taking the time to reply. I'll reach out to DNW and see if they have any hard copy catalogues from the Bole auctions back in 2010 - 2011. Thanks once again for sharing your knowledge!