Peckris 2

I'd bet my shirt that's not a proof!

They would be on the level of VIP Proof then, i.e. extremely rare. I'm sure what the TPG companies pass off as proofs very often aren’t.

But wreaths did have years and years! Here's a possible scenario for several examples: reasonably well-off uncle is shown a wreath crown by his bank and decides it would make the perfect gift for his favourite nephew. Said nephew is told to keep it 'as an heirloom' (or similar) and sticks it in his money box / pocket / wallet for years and takes it out fairly regularly and gives it a good rub "to keep it shiny". Never seeing one in change or in any shop, he probably believes he may not be able to spend it easily, so passes it on to his own kids. It's a sort-of circulation but not in the way we know it Jim.

As OldCopper points out, these were specially struck for collectors or as gifts, so they'd have had careful treatment compared to currency. I believe it may have been the same for Geo III crowns? I'm sure I once read that they were delivered to banks in special wrappings to protect them, which wouldn't have been the case for any other denomination, gold included.

I think many wreaths were struck to prooflike standards, on carefully prepared planchets, and with each die necessarily only getting limited use.

1. A year really isn't very long at all; the average coin would still be EF or better after just a year in circulation. The wreaths were struck between 1928 and 1936 and therefore potentially have had decades in pockets, wallets or wherever. 2. You're a collector. You have an inbuilt inhibition against rubbing coins - you can't say the same for a non-collector who acquired a wreath and who may have enthusiastically rubbed it clean over the years, not noticing the gradual wear. Only 30-35k were minted; let's say that as many as a fifth display extensive wear - that means around 6,000 'circulated' extensively enough to sustain the wear seen. I just can't see a mere 6,000 examples of a unique coin type being passed around unquestioned from shop to person to shop to bank to person to shop etc etc.

Could be a cleaned kosher?

1893 and 1897 are comparatively easy. The real difficult date is 1894.

I never saw one, but having said that they were clearly "25 PENCE" rather than "CROWN" so probably got accepted more.

I have the farthing equivalent of this.

In a way that doesn't matter. Looking at the 1982 prices gives you some idea of the relative scarcity, and you can then use the current values of the standard issue to calculate the value of the scarcer variety; possibly adding a slight premium to allow for the greater modern interest in rare varieties.

I wonder how when and why this came to be called "incuse curl"? It's actually two small raised hair strands.

"Dear, this old Coin is made of Brass" Stop calling me 'Dear'! Or are you saying £1:49 is dear for a fake like this? Oh, you're probably right.

As it's an unknown die pairing, could it be a Taylor restrike?

Yes, but where, and to whom? The mintages were so low I can imagine the adverts may well have been restricted to collector media. Considering how attractive they are as designs, I'd have thought many more people would have been interested if they'd been promoted widely and then the mintage would have gone up. Were crowns still circulating in the 1920s? Possible I guess, though they'd have been exclusively Vic JH and OH types. But you're talking about collectors, Rob! In Victorian and earlier times, it was the hobby of aristos and latterly perhaps, the newly moneyed entrepreneurs. Certainly not the great bulk of the working class/agricultural/lower middle class population. Perhaps those few would have been comfortable with crowns, but not most people. The wreath crowns in that link have the look of 'pocket pieces' to me, though it's a subtle distinction admittedly. George V sterling halfcrowns - unlike the 20s examples - most often show up in an average of GF-VF/GVF-EF, showing that their circulation was limited. The reason for that is that people hoarded them, believing correctly that a solid silver coin was worth intrinsically more than its debased descendant. Most of the rest were called in by the RM though it's true that a few escaped and did circulate. Victorian crowns were relatively common as types, where the wreath type was extremely uncommon. But I guess we'll never have the evidence, unless the memoir shows up of a shopkeeper with an interest in what passed through his till ... though that would immediately make him more likely to have accepted a crown than not. Don't forget that the 54 1d and the 52 2/6 were established types (I'm guessing that the 54 1d possibly didn't circulate until after 1961? as the sight of any Elizabeth II penny might have been noticed by some of its handlers). The Edward VIII 3d was probably noticed by people but with war looming and the ignorance of its rarity, possibly got passed on as in that story someone related here; it did look very similar, especially the obverse, to the GVI 3ds which themselves were regarded as an interesting novelty for the first few years.

I would say minimum EF - there's a slight flattening of the plaits in the bun, and on the bodice itself. Has it been cleaned? It has a rather 'glossy' look about it that doesn't appear natural.

I wish the other problem - Condensed listing - would get fixed. 😠 CHRIS, ARE YOU THERE???

the question is - who would take them? there were so few of them that I just don't see any commercial enterprise being willing to trust them as 'real money'.

It's a really interesting question, the general use of crowns. In the early milled period, few of the general population would have ever earned or saved enough to own a crown, so I'm guessing that - like guineas etc - they were used by aristocrats for gambling with, or by businessmen etc to settle bills at clothes/furniture/antiques/grocery shops etc. Once the population began to increase in the Industrial Revolution, there would have been a greater demand for copper and small silver but not crowns. The 1817-1820 issue was regarded as limited and special, though there was a brief period under GeoIV when they seem to have reappeared. Then they virtually disappear in the 19thC except for limited issues for Victoria, until 1887 when they reappear for nearly 15 years. Why? Was it the emergence of a suburban office-working middle class that could afford higher denominations? It has been suggested that even then they were of very limited popularity and after 1902 the Treasury stopped bothering with them altogether, as currency. Note that the mintage figures for halfcrowns in the period far exceeds those for crowns. They seem to have retained some measure of acceptance as commemoratives (which rarely circulated), until the early 1990s when the value was raised to £5 and they became a simple exercise in turning a profit for the Mint.

Anyone else noticed this problem? I normally view Unread Content by Condensed listing, but starting today, it refuses to display that; everything is in Expanded form. Yes I can click Condensed, though it doesn't take effect, and next time it's reverted to Expanded.

I'll let Chris know then. It's the same in Firefox and Chrome so there's definitely a bug. It was working fine up to a few days ago.

Here are a couple of screenshots anyway (this only shows 3 topics, but on a good day there could be a dozen so you can imagine the difference): I've had to create the Condensed view in Photoshop from the above, but it's pretty accurate I'd say:

Ok, every member of this forum is a coin collector. So here's a straw poll: Did anyone here ever see a wreath crown in their change at any time? My case is that there were only about 25,000 wreath crowns minted and the vast majority of those were 1927 which cost more than face value. So let's assume that a few kids raided their dad's collection, and knew what a crown was. They go down to their local shops and try to spend it. The shopkeeper takes one look, turns the thing over a few times, knows he has never seen one before and says "What's this then, son? Where did you get it?" or "On your bike, I'm not taking this", or something similar. I can say that I never saw ANY crown in change, not even a Churchill which were extremely common.

I'm talking about the Unread Content. There's two options there, Expanded and Condensed. Expanded shows the thread titles, the sub-titles, and the first line of the new post, taking up 5 or 6 lines. If there are - for example - 7 or 8 topics with new posts, that's a lot of scrolling down. Condensed gives you just the topic title and who posted, in a single line, so you can see more or less all Unread Content on one page, which is what I have always used. However, the Condensed button is borked, for me at any rate. Try it yourself and see if you see any difference between Ex'd and Cn'd. Let me know what you see. If you don't know what I'm talking about I'll have to use screenshots.

Any responses? Anyone seeing Condensed listings working since the day before yesterday?