Jennings

Hi all, I'm a Yank collector of post 1860 Farthings. I have the big bible on British coins, and it lists varieties for the 1875s as "older features" and "younger features", but then gives absolutely no further information. Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks! JH

Hi Mark, Thanks for your comments. I defintitely agree that the older our eyes get, the harder it is to grade, especially given the tiny size of the Farthing (and US dimes and pennies). The old optical orbs aren't what they used to be I don't routinely scan my coins, although doing so with the more valuable ones might be a good idea for insurance purposes. As long as you store the images somewhere secure (like outside your house!) in case of theft or disaster. J

Hi gang, Here are a couple of 1860 Farthings I've picked up recently off eBay for relatively cheap (under US$10.00/£5.50 each). I'm certainly no expert at grading Farthings (yet), so I wonder what you might think? Give me your raw assessment (I can take it ). Also, can someone please tell me *exactly* where to count the berries? Is it in the laurel wreath, or in the bun? Thanks! Files are pretty big, so you can see as much detail as possible. If you have a dialup connection, you might not want to click. Here are links: http://jrh.pemtel.net/FarthingA.jpg http://jrh.pemtel.net/FarthingB.jpg

You definitely (DEFINITELY) shouldn't buy a slabbed coin just based on the grade assigned (or perhaps whether they call it "red" or some other anciliary description). I've got numerous "professionally" graded American coins that any 12 year old child would be able to tell aren't anywhere near the grade listed. Unfortunately, the grade is supposed only to apply to the physical condition of the coin (ie: the wear state of the surfaces), not necessarily to the toning, color, lustre, etc. I've seen some MS67 Unc coins that I wouldn't give you two pennies for (even though the seller wanted hundreds of dollars), since they were so poorly toned (splotchy, patchy, ugly colors). Was the coin still an MS67? Maybe to somebody, but certainly not to me. Re the experience above with a coin sold as a plain edge when it wasn't - I've had a similar circumstance. Technically, unless the edge is the determinant of a subtype of a particular coin, the condition of the edge isn't supposed to come into play in determining its grade. I disagree with that, especially since I bought an MS65 Washington quarter some years ago that, when I cracked it out of the slab, ended up having huge scoring around the edge, ruining (for me) the appearance of the reeded edge completely. In short, if you must buy slabbed coins (and I discourage it heartily), by the coin, not the slab. J

Okay, here's a dumb question from a Yank on the Crown: Did St. George realy slay the dragon while riding his horse NAKED? J

My, I didn't mean to open a big can of worms, but then agian, discussion and debate *is* good. While I don't necessarily *like* everything about the American system, and while I agree that it can be confusing, those grades that are typically used (the VF to "perfect" 70 grades) are (to me) easier to understand. It's true that there's a lot of ground left uncovered, and a lot of numbers can apply to a "single" grade. I think the problem comes in in that 90% of American collectors nowdays don't give a hoot less about any coin that's not at least AU58 or higher. This goes back to the slabbing discussion elsewhere. We can't be bothered with anything less than perfect (the big "we"), so anything below a 55 or 58 isn't worthy of our time or attention. Both systems have their merits, and overall I like the 'old fashioned' British system, simply because it's more human and less perfection driven than the American system. I'm perfectly happy with a coin in a blank that's nice to look at (unslabbed, of course) that may "only" be a 40 or 45 on the American scale, but which is far less expensive and may in fact be more appealing that the "perfect" MS67 specimen that I would have to pay 30 times as much for. Give me time and I'll learn the British system mates J

Hehe... no thanks! I can't see spending $25 to slab a $9 coin. In fact, the guy who sold it to me said it should grade out as an AU58 Red-Brown I must say, I find the whole idea of "GEF" or "FVG" to be confusing. While it's at the root of the problem with American collecting, the numerical system is much easier to understand. I'll get it all sorted out in good time though. I just want to get a handle on how you folks tend to grade. Thanks! J

So, given the nicely preserved detail on Farthing B, what sets it apart as an EF from getting an UNC? I know Spink says their UNC prices are for coins with full lustre, but UNC and BU are pretty much the same thing, save for colo(u)r (sorry, I'm a Yank, and I have an aversion to extra vowels). I'm not fishing to get anyone's opinion changed on Farthing B, just curious why EF and not UNC. Tks! J

For what it's worth, the quality and rarity of US coins started (at least in my opinion) to take a precipitous drop when the US Mint started to become a profit center for the Treasury Department. Some things are nice such as the silver proof sets (90% silver versions of the half dollar, quarter, and dime), but the vast majority is crap. Prices to the consumer have gone astronomical, quality has suffered, and now you have the mint selling things like gold bullion coins as necklaces and key chains. What is the mission of the mint (any mint)? I agree that a government controlled mint should be in the business of making coins, not making profits. J

It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. People in the UK complain about the comemmorative coins, yet we here in the US have been stuck with the same basic coin designs for decades. In the case of the penny, for nearly a century. True, they did change the reverse in 1959, but the basic Lincoln cent has been pretty much the same since 1909. Also true that we now have the 50 state quarters program underway, but honestly, these are such amateurish attempts at creativity, I stopped collecting Washington quarters as soon as that program launched in 1999. We also have an equally amateurish attempt at celebrating the 200th anniversary of the Lewis & Clark expedition, taking away the very nice rendering of Thomas Jefferson's Monticello, and replacing it with two designs that look as if they were drawn by a 4th grader. When one thinks back to some of the absolutely *gorgeous* commemorative half dollars of the 1910's,through the 1950s, it makes one shed a tear for the utter loss of any artistic value to the crap the US Mint now foists off upon us here. It's a sad truth that due to Republican tax cuts (and "realignment of priorities") the position of Chief Engraver of the US Mint has now gone away. There is no overall artistic director for US coinage, and boy does it show. While I understand that not all the stuff the Royal Mint puts out will appeal to everybody on that side, at least most of your stuff has some artistic merit. Ours is just plain crap. J

Rusty nuts? Ouch! Oh... not that kind of nuts

Having recently started in on 1860-1956 Farthings, I've noticed a wide variation in the colo(u)r of the "BU" specimens. Did the metallic composition of the Farthing change at some point? I'm aware of the artifically blackened ones (which I find absolutely beautiful), but I've seen otherwise "BU" ones which range from a bright copper color to an almost gold (with a slight greenish cast). I'm comparing this to American pennies of the same vintage, which in BU tend to be either bright red (copper) or a pleasing milk chocolate brown color, depending on how they've been stored. Any thoughts? J

You should come to my house! The upstairs needs brakes

In a word, no. They're just polystyrene, not Kryptonite. Just plain old clear polystyrene, that's all. They're ultrasonically sealed along the edges, but in the end, they're still two pieces of styrene 'welded' together, and thus can be taken apart. I've done it successfully several times with my own coins, with absolutely no ill effects (except a broken X-Acto blade). J

Cracking a coin isn't really that hard. I use a sharp scalpel blade (like a #11 X-Acto) to gently get into the seam and pop it apart. As soon as you get a small crack in the seam, you can wedge the blade in there and then just proceed around the edge, popping it apart as you go. Do be careful that you don't get to the end and have your coin turn into a Mexican jumping bean and end up tinkling to the floor. It's really difficult to damage a coin by cracking the slab off of it. Not that it can't be done, just don't get hung up if you want your coin back in your hands. I agree with Sylvester & Mint Mark - if we as a group refuse to buy slabbed coins for the fantastically inflated prices some people think they should command, then the practice won't be able to catch on in the UK market. And the idea of informing new collectors of the evils of slabbing is a great way to spread the word. J

Thanks for the info chaps. By "green" I mean that I've seen some which are decidedly gold colored, but with a greenish cast to them. Not verdigris or anything, just a greenish cast such as brass has when compared to actual gold. I just love all the "brilliant" and "full lustre" Farthings I see on eBay that literally jump off the monitor screen screaming "I'VE BEEN CLEANED!!!!" at the top of their little lungs Copper that's been cleaned is SO easy to spot, yet people just keep on buying it and paying a premium for the privilege! Thanks again for the info. J

Slabbing, as has been pointed out, is slang for a coin that's been sent to a "professional" grading service. Like everything else in America (who, me, cynical?), coin collecting has been taken to the absolute extreme with this hideous practice. This is one of my main reasons for getting out of my own country's coins and into British coins, where things are still much more civilized and gentlemanly (my recent eBay experience with a certain gentleman from Cardiff notwithstanding). I also enjoy the feel and heft of a coin, which is something utterly lost when they're slabbed. It's like going to the Louvre and seeing the Mona Lisa behind ten feet of armored glass. Somewhat diminshes the experience to me. Also, just because some "professional" at a grading service puts his stamp of approval on a coin, the price usually goes up by several factors for an identical coin. As an example, a given Franklin half dollar with full bell lines (lines across the bottom of the Liberty Bell on the reverse) might sell for $300 'as-is' in a given grade (say BU/MS65). Send the same coin to a grading service, get it 'certified' as an MS65 FBL (full bell lines), and suddenly it's worth $3000. Why? Because one person at the grading service said so. No other reason. It *is* possible to "crack" a coin out of the slab without damaging it. You just have to know how to do it. It's done all the time when someone sends a coin in and it gets a grade less than what they were hoping for. Often they'll resubmit it in hopes of getting a better grade the second time round. This may be at the same grading service or at a different one. See how the whole process becomes just plain silly very quickly? Contrary to what these grading services want you to believe, it's still a very subjective process. And the level of nitpickiness that separates a PRF69 from a PRF70 (for example) is so microscopic that I don't believe the average mortal human being can ever tell the difference. I've got one PRF70 Roosevelt dime and one PRF69 (same year, same mint, identical coins), and I'm damned if I can see a single iota of difference between them. I'm SO thankful this ridiculous practice has not pervaded the British market. I only hope that people don't tire of the American market and start doing the same thing to the British market. I'll be a steadfast holdout for buying "raw" coins! Farthings forever J

Is there a place that has mintage figures for modern (ie: since the 19th Century) British coins? The "red book" in the USA has this information, but my new copy of Spink doesn't. It would be nice to know which Farthings had the lowest mintages. Cheers, J

Interesting to see the differences between UK collectors and US collectors. I've never heard of a single US coin collector using trays (at least not like the ones I've seen advertised herein). Everyone these days seems bent on collecting "slabbed" coins (a trend that I deplore, and which drove me out of the US coin market). If not that, they tend to keep their collections in 2x2" 'flips' (the clear mylar kind with two pockets that folds in the middle), or in 2x2" cardboard/mylar holders in albums. I think there is some kind of phobia in the US about handling the actual coin, since (unless it's a highly worn example) almost no one ever sells raw coins that aren't in some kind of a holder. This is especially true of anything you could classify as AU or BU (Unc with lustre to you all). I like the idea of trays that stack, and will be ordering some shortly (Chris...) for my Farthings. Not sure about a cabinet, but perhaps a desk with some kind of an enclosed cabinet/door type thing? I need to keep them upstairs in my house, as my downstairs stays fairly damp due to a stream that runs just outside. Verdigris is not on my want list! I appreciate all the assistance and good info on this site! J

I bid on a couple of nice Farthings on eBay. The seller was a guy in Barry (Cardiff) named Mike Jones who uses the eBay trader ID "bargainpics" (mike_jonessv@hotmail.com). The total for the two coins I won was £5.91. When I emailed him to get him to tell me what the total was, including postage to the USA, here's the response I got: "HI.I AM SORRY BUT I HAVE BEEN OFFERED TWELVE POUNDS OFF A LOCAL DEALAR FOR THE 1927+1931 BOTH IN BU CONDITION,AS I ADVERTISED IN THE LOCAL PAPER,AS WRITTEN IN MY EBAY ADVERT,IF YOU STILL WANT THEM FOR THAT PRICE JUST E-MAIL ME ASAP FREE POST." Has anyone else ever had this kind of dealing with this !@#$%^&* before? I explained to him quite firmly that this is a violation of eBay rules regardless of whether he put it in his eBay advert, and have left negative feedback as well as reporting him to eBay's Fairtrade department. And I guess he thinks I'm stupid enough to buy a line of bull like that, having absolutely no way to verify that he actually *does* have such an offer (well above the market price for the coins). Does he think I just fell off the turnip truck yesterday? Sheesh.. For the amount of money involved, I'm astounded that he's willing to risk being banned from eBay and losing whatever reputation he may have. And it's not as if the coins in question (1927 & 1931 Unc Farthings) are all that rare and valuable. Boy am I miffed! (There, I feel better now) J

I'm somewhat amazed that there doesn't seem to be any online source for current price trends for British coins. There are several for American and some for other coins, but unless I'm blind (or Google doesn't work right), there doesn't seem to be one for British coins. Have I missed it?? Tks! J

Hi Chris, Any idea when you may publish?? I'd be *very* interested in a PDF version! Cheers, J

Thanks everybody. I'm relatively new in British coins (being a Yank and all), so I appreciate the thoughts. Collecting American coins has become, like so much else in America, 'supersized' and nigh impossible for we mere mortals. Unless you're satisfied to collect poor to Fine (at best) circulated coins, collecting anything in higher grades is just no fun, given the explosion of "slabbing" of everything. I started collecting Washington quarters (which started in 1932, the year my dad was born) before the current craze for them started, and suddenly I can't even begin to afford them any more. So I decided to try something a little less stressful, less expensive, and more fun - Farthings. I've always been an Anglophile at heart (I met my now ex-wife while we were both on holiday in the UK), so it seemed a natural. I love the fact that I have yet to see a single 'certified' Farthing! Best regards, Jennings