Peter

Ebay shilling ring. You will have to plough through the various threads...also on CC.

Herein lies the moral dilemma. If you are going to set up a business that purports to be a standard bearer for genuineness and general fidelity, then it is incompatible to accept any coin for slabbing that has been modified or otherwise "improved". I'm not criticising the workmanship, but if you are going to have rules, then they have to be uniformly applied. You can't have a system that everyone swears by based on a confidence that a coin is untampered with only to throw out the rule book because something looks nice. Otherwise, what is the problem with someone sneaking modern counterfeits past the graders having removed the identifying features? After all, the metal could be right, the design could be right, the method of manufacture could be right and with a bit of judicious modification, they could all be made to look different. People would complain if this happened and was discovered. You can't have selective application of any set of rules if the system's integrity depends on those rules. Coins routinely get rejected by the TPGs for environmental damage, or cleaning that nobody else can see; I can't see how this can be considered acceptable if their standards are to have any credibility. I have an issue with a certain (highly regarded and a reputation for strictness on grade)TPG who was selling a "best available" G1 farthing which clearly had verdigris.I pointed this out and was ignored. They then bought from their auction a bun Victorian farthing which was a beauty but had an edge knock. Next thing its in a slab with the price doubled and the edge knock conveniently disguised by the slab. Their quality control needs addressing to prevent being caught out. Also the statement "best available" can't be backed up and is a joke.It adds £ to the price and certainly dupes a few punters.

Fascinating Rob and without doubt the same coin.What a beauty. This is almost "what you don't know won't hurt you" If the restoration is professionally done,not evident and indeed enhances the coin is this so bad. This is how the furniture/art boys operate.

How can they tell, do you think? What do they know that you lot don't? Sadly, you can't rely on them. One of the gold pattern halfpennies I bought at Plymouth in 2008 with a large scratch/scuff on the cheek and subsequently sold resurfaced in last September's St.James's sale with the mark removed and now resides in an NGC PF64 ultra cameo slab instead of whatever code they give for damage or altered. Someone paid over US$30K for a tooled coin, which I can almost guarantee was done unknowingly. Having said that, when I posted the info on a US forum, the silence was deafening, so I guess they didn't care too much that it had slipped through and assume the guarantee of genuineness was more important. Shite, isn't it? Rob Who did you sell it to and for how much? I'm horrified that this could happen with a £20k coin. How have NGC taken the news?....something like this could cause serious damage to slabbing companies. But hey a slabber isn't an expert in some of our specialised fields. I sold it to Steven Fenton at the Harrogate fair in March 2010 for a sum between what I paid for it and what it sold for in the Sept. sale where it resurfaced in the slab. It had a 5% import surcharge for EU bidders, so had obviously been exported outside the EU in the interim. I assume that it went across the pond. The hammer price was £17K (or about £20K with the premium) and was sold to an American dealer, so it is reasonable to assume it is now Stateside again. I did a thread on the PCGS forum called slab images as I was trying to get an NGC archived image to see what they had and compare it with the Plymouth sale CD images together with my own and the Mitchell-David and other properties patterns and proofs. NGC may or may not know about it as this would require them to monitor the PCGS forum. Clearly they aren't going to wave a big flag saying we can't tell a tooled coin when we see one. This incidentally goes full circle back to the question of provenance. A unique gold coin will always be imaged in modern times, so modifying it to remove blemishes is crass because someone is going to point it out. Having owned the coin for a couple years, I know I'm not wrong and so I raised the issue. For a forum filled with people extolling the virtues and benefits of slabbing, the minimal response was very surprising. So...if you hadn't owned the coin could you tell if it had been tooled? Would a gold coin with a blemish assist with its authenticity? Several years ago I was looking to invest in some hammered gold...alas I didn't.I was warned by CC. I would have bought VF nicely struck examples.

With hammered,dies can be produced to replicate the originals...1000 year old silver is dug up everyday.Trevor Ashmore produced some nice fakes. What is stopping a nice little tick over of Edward 1 pennies? No one would suspect.

How can they tell, do you think? What do they know that you lot don't? Sadly, you can't rely on them. One of the gold pattern halfpennies I bought at Plymouth in 2008 with a large scratch/scuff on the cheek and subsequently sold resurfaced in last September's St.James's sale with the mark removed and now resides in an NGC PF64 ultra cameo slab instead of whatever code they give for damage or altered. Someone paid over US$30K for a tooled coin, which I can almost guarantee was done unknowingly. Having said that, when I posted the info on a US forum, the silence was deafening, so I guess they didn't care too much that it had slipped through and assume the guarantee of genuineness was more important. Shite, isn't it? Rob Who did you sell it to and for how much? I'm horrified that this could happen with a £20k coin. How have NGC taken the news?....something like this could cause serious damage to slabbing companies. But hey a slabber isn't an expert in some of our specialised fields.

Dave I agree with Colin. Take one step back and if you still feel bad so be it. The hobby is fascinating,accessible,available 24/7 and if you run a tight ship may increase in value year on. There can be bad eggs but the majority of dealers and fellow collectors are trustworthy and from experience educated and pleasant. We all like a bit of banter and that is where it should remain.Getting uptight about situations never appears to be the answer. Peter

Don't wind the lad up. From a very early age I was convinced I had an early unrecorded hammered groat (that my father dug up in his allotment).It was of course a jetton.

Thats Ebay for you. I wouldn't be without it whether selling or buying. Why did you buy it?..I thought your sideline was stretched limo's. To change the subject.How is the coin book idea to cover milled pre 1797 coming on?

I've been watching this live as hackers have got into these web sites. They put up a spoof that Murdoch was dead,redirected hits to their twitter page and have been generally running riot. It makes me wonder where all this hacking and snooping will end up.

And obviously a bank account to match the dreams Any chance you could adopt me Rob?I'd like to also place on record that i'm Robs love child and lay any claim to his collection Got some news for you.Your real parents are Martin & Tracey from the West country who sold you for a shilling (Thomas Hardy Mayor of Casterbridge like) to the Wier family from Ayrshire...hang on.

Where did you get it? Goldberg's Terner Sale of May, 2003. Hardly seems possible it was eight years ago. Marv Is this a record...a reply to a thread 4 1/2 years on

Next time the Sally Army are in my club I will pop an extra guinea in the collection tin...I think I have a spare 1703 VIGO knocking about somewhere.

Chris, the VAT rules are causing me a headache or two! The Global Accounting scheme means that whatever is my stock cost price at date of registration (August 2010) becomes a negative equity. Each sale under £500 (UK and EU only) is a positive equity thus reducing my negative balance. All sales of over £500 on individual items must have an entry in a stock book showing cost price and sale price, with 20% due on the profit (these items are under the VAT Margin Scheme ). All invoices of mine must show that I am not charging VAT to the customer but I am registered. Any item of over £500 that I cannot provide a receipt for cannot be listed under the margin scheme and is liable for VAT at 20% on the full sale price. Some gold is zero rated and some isn't. These are the simplified rules !!!! As for your question.... sorry I am lost! VAT plus income tax plus ebay extortion plus customers wanting discount plus rising stock purchase costs plus rocketing fuel costs = slim pickings on the profit front At least the collection is growing though!! John. Apologies John,I didn't realise you had it so bad . I'm lucky in that I can invoice monthly (or whatever) and add my 20% and then my accountant (quarterly) sorts out my flat rate based on turnover (which is a lesser %)He also invoices me quarterly for his services at this time so everyone is happy and I have a few hours left to pour over coins,decorate and say loving things to Mrs Peter. I can imagine due to the nature of the beast yours is a nightmare...Move to the Isle of Man or somewhere or sell your coins really cheaply to keep under the threshold...now there's a thought.

Welcome to the forum You are sensible in avoiding ebay and unknown dealers in your quest. try Historic Coinage. Clive is a forum member (on several forums I use)and will give you what you want. If you just want the 1 coin make sure it is round,no splits and can be ID'd. In my opinion it will be an investment (for the very reason you are after one).

Some nice coins on your site...the Cromwell is spectacular. Apart from the shilling thread(s) there are some interesting discussions. Welcome. Peter

I too am spending a great deal of time, rather than money, on old cars - but it was ever thus. On the other hand, a friend is threatening to pay me to restore his MGB to health, so that might at least supplement my meagre income as a coin dealer... Keep it meagre as long as you can Derek. I have had to register for VAT and it's a right pain in the arse! My accountant does mine and its a nice way to earn a few £ for nothing (claiming 20% and only paying less as a small business )

Hi You are quite near to Birmingham NEC motorbike museum which has the Midland fair every 2nd Sunday of the month.There are many dealers with the 25p to £5 boxes plus plenty of dealers with albums full of the coins you are after. I think you might enjoy a visit.

After 49&46 50&51 are the rarest brass 3d's. If it was Unc it would be worth a few bob. The one offered looks cleaned (grade looks cleaned VF) I've never seen a counterfeit brass 3d.

I'm in a decorating frenzy as contracts are scarce at present. I now also lurk on DIY sites One of Mrs Peter's friends commented that the wallpapering was the best she had seen and could she have the decorators nr. My head swelled and I've been stuck in the lounge ever since.(although I confess I've learned by mistakes). We also have another property which has been done to "rental standard" and I've got an eye open for another opportunity. Oh the joys of nearly paying off my mortgage. If only I can persuade Mrs Peter to get a full time job Breakfasting the kids,taking the dog for a walk,a bit of painting and a visit to the DIY sheds is a nice way to spend a day.

I think the local pie shop are looking forward to a busy weekend. Whatever (or whoever) persuaded them to go public.

no-way, so they cut coins in halfs and quarters instead of making halves and quarter denominations, how lazy! lol as always thanks for the info. Just goes to show that the name "halfpenny" is literally true! The cut coins are short cross and more than likely Henry 111 (or could be an earlier rarer monarch.) The long cross,Edward 1 onwards(the cross goes completely to the edge)superceeded the short cross to discourage clipping of the flan which was rife. The cross gave a convenient template for cutting the coins. Eventually 1/2d's and 1/4d's were minted. I have seen cut groats (4d's). Cutting and clipping continued.

I emailed the seller over the weekend politely pointing out the error of his ways.He replied yesterday with no text. He has a reserve on it(min £50) so if it sells it will be to a novice...the joys of ebay.

Cu pennies started in 1797 Before copper 1/4ds we had the Rose/Harrington & Lennox's etc & beautiful little silver gems with the early Eddies. We also had to cut up pennies into halves and quarters because pennies couldn't cut the mustard. It's not have a go at Dave time...it's just the shiney bun pennies can sometimes hurt your eyes and the bias on the forum is pennies.

6 The henry looks repro...far too central and a "punch like" profile. 7 The 1673 farthing is reasonable but porous and only F/F+.Early copper seems to be always overgraded.However a clear date and no major blemishes boost value. Many a time my heart has raced as I have picked up a good looking piece of early copper only to discover the other side has problems IE date not clear or a flan flaw.