Rob

He probably wasn't using them as a reference with intent to deceive. He had a Victorian coin of the same colour and similar design to one that was listed and copied the description. Take the one that looks like giving the best return and you will probably end up with something like he wrote. Could have substituted NGC or PCGS for CGS depending on the item viewed, but the result would be the same.

I concur. The fleurs are too late for 3d.

No response so far and this is bugging me, and yes, I know there's a hole in it. Long cross, 3 pellets in each angle on the reverse and I'm pretty certain it's contemporary with the northern european sterling imitations of the 13/14th centuries. Anyone with a copy of Engel et Serreure or the full version of Chautard? It isn't in the abridged set of plates of the latter published in the 1960s. Ta.

The date would help because 1880 onwards is definitely 4th and before 1878 definitely 3rd. The nose has a slightly pronounced bridge on the 4th head and the tip of the truncation is typically more rounded. Normally, the easiest way is to look at the way the hair is rendered at the nape below the fillet, but that presumes some detail. The one on the right in the picture is 4th head, the middle 3rd.

That raises an interesting question. Would a TPG be able to insist eBay remove those listings which imply their (presumably trademarked or copyrighted) name and grading system are being used in a way that misrepresents their business? eBay certainly do it for digital material and as I see it, there is the same insinuation that you are getting the genuine item.

Struggling with the mint because both sides read OLE, but then only one side has O whilst the other has C, but both have VS REX III with nothing clear for the mint signature

Ebay - the source of all knowledge and pricing.

Looking at a selection of things, a pattern of sorts appears to exist. His father was chief engraver of the seals and a medallist, but only appointed after his son. It has to be borne in mind that coin output at the Royal Mint was negligible over much of the reign of George III. Coppers from 1797 and 5 shilling dollars were produced at the Soho mint, leaving the Royal Mint to produce mostly gold, so a full time engraver was unlikely to be necessary. Appointed probationary engraver in 1811, his father had not yet been appointed chief engraver of seals and William was not yet on board, so it would appear that a simple W was adequate - such as on the Military Guinea. The question arises as to whether any others were employed as engravers prior to 1816. I don't know the answer to that. Where T Wyon Junior has engraved a medal, he signs it T Wyon Jun, and conversely his father uses T Wyon Sen. Pistrucci was appointed on Junior's death and used anything from BP to his full name. J B Merlen, engaged from 1820, used his initials, as did WW (employed from 1816). At this point the use of a single W would be ambiguous due to the appointment of Thomas Wyon Senior, leading I believe to the different identifying initials

'Detail of edge lettering and orientation to obverse side suggest that this is an early circulated proof specimen and priced accordingly. Any questions please ask. Thanks' If anyone is logged in they could ask where this valuable information can be found. The response will be interesting, though, as Sword has mentioned, he may be quoting yestodtom.

The 1817 shillings occur across the grades, from fair to unc with a fairly even spread. The 1817 referred to in the DNW sale is illustrated somewhere on this forum. The one in DNW October 2002 I bought on ebay a couple years later and sold when I bought the 1817 above. The 1820 does appear to be rarer.

That one reappeared in an MS65 slab, bought at bargain basement price (£130 ish), and I sold it for a forum member. The total is probably more than 10 as I now have records of 8. The two dates for shillings with I/S in HONI (1817 & 1820) are struck from different reverse dies. The first is still not listed in CoE. I don't know if the same error exists in 1817 for sixpences, but the consistency of error suggests they were done by the same hand, who presumably thought the N was that of PENSE. This will be a mirror of the S/I error where the engraver was obviously thinking of the N in HONI

Check the electoral roll for a guy called Arnold Layne.

Well done everybody. The 52nd edition of the general tome is out this month. Or for the decimal section only, the third edition.

They are all listed in Coins of England

Thinking out loud, I wonder if this went hand in hand with the reduction in force used for striking coins during the war years in an attempt to make the dies last longer? The less metal displacement there is, the less force would be required (i.e more efficient to operate), and it is clear from the ghosting seen that metal displacement was considerable, so a recessed ear would produce a better struck up coin for less work done.

That's the point I was making. I wouldn't have bought a coin in F to VF that I knew was available in UNC either, but the complete lack of interest suggests that the number of serious variety collectors is unlikely to be much greater than the number of top grade coins available. It's a small world.

But recessed ears appear to only be collectable in high grade and to penny afficionados. People who just want an example of that year tend not to be interested. Thinking they would have some appeal, I put a pair of recessed ears, both a 1915 & a 1916 in F-VF on for a month (relisted twice and starting for a quid) early on last year and nobody was watching, let alone bidding on them. I eventually stuck them in the melt pile. I think the market for specialist varieties is more rarified than people might think, whatever the denomination or period. Unless it is unbelievably rare, or the vendor is lucky enough to get two specialists chasing a difficult variety, most things seem to languish and maybe sell for a quid, or opening price.

We are looking at a period when popular culture propelled many more 'celebrities' into the public eye than existed previously. The 60's saw a huge rise in popular culture combined with greater spending power to follow bands and buy their records. Large festivals made their appearance too towards the end of the decade. All these people are now at the age when they are dying off, but their fame is ensured by the baby boomer generation who had so much disposable compared to before or afterwards. Those that died very young such as George Michael are essentially outlying data points. The majority are statistically right where you would expect to find them. I think next year will see similar numbers to this year because most of the celebs are still there.

If you can find me unc 1837s at £500-600 each, I'll take as many as you can find. I'll even drive over to pick them up.

Possibly a smaller font 7 on the bottom of the last pile, but struggling with the third numbers.

He does come from Rotherham

Who's that and what was it? Somewhere I have a picture of a sign saying BE WARE OF DOG'S in three lines with a reversed S for the legend variety collectors amongst you. That was in Ireland in the late 70s

True, there will be more than one grocer, but it would be wrong to tar all grocers with the same brush. However, there is only one Fanny Craddock in this instance.

The correct application of the apostrophe leaves one in no doubt as to the meaning. That is why the (seemingly obligatory) use of the grocer's apostrophe is fraught with problems.

Merry Christmas everyone.