Rob

I'll go with cypher overall rarest, just. Gut instinct is shillings and sixpences anchor rarest, halfgroats to halfpence cypher is rarest. I think halfgroats are difficult to find for both marks but again cypher just edges it. Can't speak for the gold.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-25793358

Most people are tolerant of many things. Most also have a leaning to one party or another. None will claim they are trying to revoke basic values. You can count the legitimate parties on both hands. There are a much larger number of individuals who have to align themselves with one of these meaning all parties will have their black sheep. I believe that in the case of UKIP, many voters support it simply for its stance on Europe which is unambiguous, not because of some nutter from Henley-on-Thames invoking the wrath of God. He moved in and can't represent their mainstream view. Many people have already abandoned politics by not bothering to vote. This will only further the case for abstention.

I think it might be Pitney-Bowes(?) that has the packing and shipping contract.

Don't kid yourself. A group of two will have diverging views. A political party will have as many views as members, some of which you will agree with, some you won't. Although all will pay lip service to the general policies of the party, more than a few individuals will have views you find disagreeable at the least. It doesn't matter whether your views are left or right because at the extremes of both sides they are much, much closer to each other than the moderates of either persuasion.

eBay don't keep the packing and tax bit which is sub-contracted to another well known company whose name eludes me at the moment. It's still a rip-off though charging for something that isn't applicable.

Blimey, TPGC's what?

They were still good value.

Could have been a dealer who believes (rightly or wrongly) that the slabbed coins will sell quicker or for a little more? Unlikely. How many dealers have 1000 coins worth slabbing just sitting in their trays?

As long as you keep collecting it will happen again. On other occasions you will pay over the odds. That's collecting life. Taken as a whole you should do ok long term as long as you look at purchases objectively. By all means pay a bit more for something you really, but equally don't be afraid to walk away. A bargain is not always what it seems.

Just had a look at the complete listings offered by matt trev. He needs to get them slabbed by 'centisles', sharpish. That's the only grading service that would take them on at the suggested grades. Has his finger got stuck in the EF position? This looks like a clear case of the books only giving values down to Fine, so that's your starting grade.

I'm more concerned about his wasted 50 years. If after all that time he calls the penny EF, he might not quite be on the ball.

We both know there are good and bad TPGs just as we know there are good and bad graders amongst individuals. As said before, this is always going to be a subjective matter. The standards used by NGC and PCGS differ wildly from the guy who trades as centisles(?) for example. You can't stop the latter, because we live in a world where his opinion is his right, and his right to carry on a legitimate business within the law is undeniable. All that matters is that he is consistent. Even the individual TPGs have variable standards for the same type within their own setup, otherwise you would never be able to resubmit until the grade you wanted was obtained. And what about the slabbed dodgy ones? I know of quite a few doctored coins in slabs, or even the odd fake or two. Would I sell my collection slabbed by a US TPG? Probably not. Ancient coinage has vitually all come out of the ground. Therefore cleaned and by default 'xx details, cleaned' if the rules are consistently applied. Most of the time their hammered grading is best avoided and the vagaries of hammered coins don't lend themselves to a consistent numbering system. It boils down to whether I believe the results would be beneficial. That's a definite maybe, maybe not. Given I threw out a coin last year because of the wear which was promptly graded MS66 by NGC , yet Steve has just bought a wonderfully undergraded PF62 penny leads me to think it would be a mixed bag, even for the milled.

My concern is that the focus might (or probably has in some quarters) shift from the coin to the grade. So instead of people looking for a nicer coin, they seek a higher number.This to me is the inherent problem with all TPGS. Whether one is better or not is to me, a moot point. Protection of coins, conservation, authentication? I have no problems with any of those.But fuelling the 'number chasing' craze? They are all bad in that respect to my eyes and as Rob alludes, people need to learn to make up their own minds about a coin, instead of relying on someone else. IMHO..I totally agree that chasing the number is a problem. everyone should learn to grade and judge each coin on it's own merits. I also agree that registry sets tend to attract buyers of the number and not the coin. My argument is for those who are unsure of their grading skills and enjoy the hobby by collecting already graded coins - a universal grading system would be beneficial - as long as consistency in grading applies. I understand where you are coming from, but question the premise that there are many genuine collectors who are that unsure about their grading skills, yet are happy to spend hundred or even thousands on something they know nothing about. The idea that you can rely on an uncalibrated grader to accurately grade across both time and relative to their peers is a non-starter, so the ball is firmly in the court of the collector in my opinion. Why would anyone refuse to spend a tenner on a book which would clarify how to grade, yet spend many multiples on a coin. Frankly, I don't think it is too much to ask the uninitiated to become just slightly initiated. The genuine 'collector' who doesn't care or want to grade is an investor. Different rules apply at this point.Would you walk into a shop and buy a suit simply because it said 38 chest, 34 leg etc without trying it on? I think not. You would see if it was right for you. A few rudimentary ground rules for collectors is therefore not asking too much. Ah, now we move into a different - but closely related topic. What is a collector? Is he purely in it for the pursuit of completing or advancing his collection? Or is he in it not only to advance his collecting interests - but to benefit financially? Isn't every collector actually part collector and part investor? I think the latter applies by default rather than design. Historically, coins have generally drifted upwards in value with a few peaks and troughs. In pure physical numbers, almost any long term collector will make money without any correction for inflation. I just have a problem accepting there might be collectors who are completely ignorant of grading, yet are willing to spend 3,4,5.. figure sums on something they purport to know nothing about. If any such animal exists it should be an endangered species. The casual purchaser is likely to be someone who has bought a coin because it was struck in their home town for example, and they like it for that without being interested in the wider subject of numismatics. Anyone who looks at a number of coins in their pocket cannot fail to notice the differences in condition. Anyone who collects coins will invariably have a reference book which will refer to coin grading, usually with a handful of images. Whether it is current or out of date is not important as grading is not time dependent. There are complete books on the subject such as Derek's. The info is not proprietary and any failure to investigate is not the fault of the market, but the individual. I don't believe that people buy coins but don't even look at them. So it all boils down to whether the individual understands what they are buying. If they have no concept of grading, any system will be meaningless. If they have a rudimentary knowledge of grades, consistency by the TPGs would be paramount, but not entirely reliant on a single unified scale in universal use. The info that MS70 is 'perfect' just has to be set alongside the alternative scale, as is found in any table showing comparative non-numerical grades in different languages. As said before, the big impediment is the inconsistency of the TPGs, who despite having a set of rules, fail to grade consistently. This is a more intractable problem than the individual who can't grade because if the main players are inconsistent, why shouldn't anyone else use their own interpretation of the Sheldon or any other system. Anything becomes acceptable. In the absence of a reliable grading system, it has to be incumbent on the collector to look after their own interests.

My concern is that the focus might (or probably has in some quarters) shift from the coin to the grade. So instead of people looking for a nicer coin, they seek a higher number.This to me is the inherent problem with all TPGS. Whether one is better or not is to me, a moot point. Protection of coins, conservation, authentication? I have no problems with any of those.But fuelling the 'number chasing' craze? They are all bad in that respect to my eyes and as Rob alludes, people need to learn to make up their own minds about a coin, instead of relying on someone else. IMHO..I totally agree that chasing the number is a problem. everyone should learn to grade and judge each coin on it's own merits. I also agree that registry sets tend to attract buyers of the number and not the coin. My argument is for those who are unsure of their grading skills and enjoy the hobby by collecting already graded coins - a universal grading system would be beneficial - as long as consistency in grading applies. I understand where you are coming from, but question the premise that there are many genuine collectors who are that unsure about their grading skills, yet are happy to spend hundred or even thousands on something they know nothing about. The idea that you can rely on an uncalibrated grader to accurately grade across both time and relative to their peers is a non-starter, so the ball is firmly in the court of the collector in my opinion. Why would anyone refuse to spend a tenner on a book which would clarify how to grade, yet spend many multiples on a coin. Frankly, I don't think it is too much to ask the uninitiated to become just slightly initiated. The genuine 'collector' who doesn't care or want to grade is an investor. Different rules apply at this point. Would you walk into a shop and buy a suit simply because it said 38 chest, 34 leg etc without trying it on? I think not. You would see if it was right for you. A few rudimentary ground rules for collectors is therefore not asking too much.

My concern is that the focus might (or probably has in some quarters) shift from the coin to the grade. So instead of people looking for a nicer coin, they seek a higher number. This to me is the inherent problem with all TPGS. Whether one is better or not is to me, a moot point. They are still all bad in my eyes and as Rob alludes, people need to learn to make up their own minds about a coin instead of relying on someone else. IMHO. No probably about it. You often see people on a US forum waxing lyrical because of the number applied, with the compliment applied for the grade assigned rather than the coin. Registry sets are to blame. People leave coins alone if their average slab score is in danger of being reduced. Weird eh? They collect slabs with the right number, which can mean that certain coins must be excluded on the grounds of grades available and it also effectively eliminates any possibility of assembling a collection for researching a series because they are stuck in plastic. e.g. I'm not sure what they would do if they wanted to get the best run of say Charles II halfcrowns given the best 1667/4 is only about a UK Fine or so.

D&H 7 and Atkins 7, but not a clue about its value or rarity.

Same here, though I do receive the coin ones too. I did suggest that I get taken off the banknote list, but the feeling was that this could backfire and I could receive nothing at all.

A common grading scale is irrelevant if whatever is used is consistently applied. The failure to implement the latter is the reason for the scepticismAgree - consistency is the key, but a common scale is also needed for ease of the collector. Not convinced. Do collectors really need to have their hands held to the nthdegree? Somewhere along the line it is reasonable to expect people to utilise the mushy mess found between their earholes. I would view making a ready comparison between two scales to be no different to looking at a coin and assessing the grade by the viewer's standards. Again, it doesn't ,matter what he/she calls it. Their EF can be someone else's UNC and a third person's VF. If someone can't remember less than a dozen numbers for comparison, it doesn't say much about the interest they take in their hobby, particularly if helped by the addition of a traditional grade to the number. People just need to apply a bit of intelligence instead of blindly relying on everyone else. It doesn't matter as long as any grading is consistent for each party and all expect to pay roughly the same amount. A greater problem is that people see what they want to see, call it want they want to have and as a consequence believe that the price paid validates their grading. Many inexperienced collectors overgrade for this reason - and pay through the nose for their ways. Many a Fine coin is presented as EF, and with the recent memory of a noble in Baldwins last year, a TPG AU can also be a good Fine.

I got stung with this not too long ago when I bought some books off a US seller. He had opted for the 'simplified' eBay shipping option in good faith. I looked at it and thought the shipping was x and the duty component y. Knowing there was no duty or VAT on books I duly accepted the shipping method he wanted to use. Silly me. The additional cost is applied whether duty is applicable or not to 'offset the costs of the facilitating company'. Avoid at all costs, or best ask if the seller will ship without using eBay's services. Not funny. £85 of books translated to over £125 all in, or at least £15 OTT.

A common grading scale is irrelevant if whatever is used is consistently applied. The failure to implement the latter is the reason for the scepticism

Slightly high, but by the time you have accounted for ebay's take it is not too much over. Even with the fuzzy pictures it is clearly around the VF mark (which is the same as a US XF45). Spink book for VF is 350 or thereabouts, so not that optimistic. He does say genuine offers considered too. A better than VF C2 halfpenny is worth the money. The relief on these is not great. See my 1675/3/2 in the unlisted variety section for how low it is. That was slabbed MS65. I would say good EF The 1675/3 listed in the CC list for Sept. 2005 (1052) was also mine and previously slabbed PCGS MS 64, but again was only an EF. I have to confess to playing havoc with the TPG populations of these things. Apologies to all our US friends.

As I've said before, the TPGs live in parallel universes. All have finest known allocated to their slabs without any reference or even vaguely mentioning that there might be others slabbed in a higher grade. They are only pushing their own product, and as such should be viewed like any other product/service which has merits or otherwise. eg. German cars are reliable, British ones not, and Fiats just fall apart - leaving aside the Lada which never required the theft part of TPT insurance. It's horses for courses. The simple answer as ever is to buy the coin using your eyes and not the opinion of someone who is driven by £s or $s.

CGS do the best job of grading British coins. If I had to choose between PCGS and NGC, it would have to be PCGS. Snap.