Rob

This is crap then. Colours are all over the place. The sky is blue with a big patch of yellow - whatever next? And the sea really is the Red Sea. Naughty old Peck and the dirty vicar from Tewkesbury for doctoring this coin long before it became fashionable.

Am I the only one to think that that is ridiculous? What is the argument that it should be other than 50-50? I'm amazed the coin contributes as much as 20% of the score, let alone the reverse only. I thought it was all to do with marks out of 10 in the Warhol-esque abstract art section. It certainly has bu**er all to do with the contents of the slab on too many occasions.

If you want an example of the contradictions posed by the TPGs, you need look no further than the last Goldberg sale. lot 4329 http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1〈=1&sale=75&lot=4329 was slabbed MS65. The following lot was slabbed unc details and struck from the same die pair. Both had raised lines in the obverse field from die polishing, both had a couple of small digs to the obverse, the first by the mouth and cheek, the second behind the head above the ties. Otherwise they were practically identical, and there are no surface hairlines on the second coin other than the raised ones mentioned. It is a lottery, so don't be surprised when they don't agree with your assessment. Play the game and use your free thinking to your benefit as it works all ways. The wrong (low number) label means a cheap coin. A crap coin with a big number label is still a crap coin which you wouldn't want anyway. Let the number chasers buy it as it gives you one fewer competitor on the next one.

It should be a farthing. No pennies, halfpennies or fractional farthings were struck in 1850. Presumably the diameter is about 21mm?

With 42 examples of 'Rare rainbow patina' listed out of 70 listings in total, one might question the use of the word 'rare'. The atmosphere in Finland looks as if it is dodgy too - still, at least the EU's environment police can get a handle on that one. The only good thing to come out of all this AT madness is the preference for doctoring modern coins to achieve a level of toning that few would ever reach in a 100 years. The huge mint outputs mean that a shortage of an individual type is unlikely to result, whilst those that wish to waste money on a tacky fairground trinket are also catered for. With business expanded and more people catered for, the market is working folks.

1905 would be your Key date for the halfcrown. Liverwho? Liverpoo Sorry - intermittently defective l on the keyboard.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=900585

All the other 3s have the angled stroke such that extending it hits the end of the bottom curve. One (presumably the 'open 3') doesn't. And going back to my original point as to whether this is 3 over 2, there is a diagonal line on my screen across the upper part of the bottom curve which continues into a curved line in the field. Following the curve round you hit the left hand end of the top bar of the 3, and this is in higher relief. Taken in conjunction with a roughly straight inside 'curve' to the lower part of the 3, this would be commensurate with a filled in 2 and overcut with a 3.

Probably looked at Spink or CCGB etc. IND IMP was dropped from 1949, so comes under a different reference number

It is definitely not a coin, but a medal or medalette. Not my department unfortunately.

That's alright. I think I waste most of my time on ebay making a note of the odd thing worth bidding on, but then forget to bid at the last moment. Not the hundred and first time I've done it, and certainly not the last. Need to get more organised. Looking at the image I would have bid on it.

And the reverse.

Given it is normally recessed, it is quite difficult to get a lot of wear on the mark, so I concur that the chances are that a low grade mark = weak punch. It would be nice to confirm this with what should be less damage to the reverse though before setting in stone. Image attached of my Lima 8R which has quite a strong punch. Image of the reverse to follow as I can't be bothered going into photobucket to show the whole coin.

Given that the countermarked coins generally go for more than the originals, it seems logical that the value is in the c/mark. higher grade = higher value

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310767665988?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D310767665988%26_rdc%3D1 No wonder she never got married! Early example of a he-she? The only clear legend is REX - which is a bit of a giveaway. No?

That's just business. If someone wants the security of a graded and genuine fantasy or reproduction, any or all of the TPGs will probably step up to the plate.

Is the 3 over a 2? The surface of the 3 and surrounding field make it worth checking.

Wow. So he has a collection of low grade higher value coins worth about £50K or so. A few thousand I can see being spent without a bit of research. A few hundred thousand???????? Caveat emptor. I too have picked up old collections where the realisation of what was purchased against market value was a bit of a shock, though not on that scale. Mine were typically a 4 figure sum for things worth a couple of hundred pounds tops.............. multiplied a few dozen times. Every example I noted had a lot of glossy sales blurb with an image of an example of the coin provided in high grade, but the contents of the box were typically fine. The only exception being proofs where the coin was virtually as struck, but the price paid many times that of market value. Yes to say this collector has been well and truly stitched up is an understatement!! Which makes me wonder how many others have fallen foul!! Quite a lot I suspect given the marketing blurb usually says restricted to 500 or 1000 pieces. They shift them as the number of boxes reappearing at auction bear out. Given most people hang on to 'investments', what we see is probably only the tip of the iceberg.

Wow. So he has a collection of low grade higher value coins worth about £50K or so. A few thousand I can see being spent without a bit of research. A few hundred thousand???????? Caveat emptor. I too have picked up old collections where the realisation of what was purchased against market value was a bit of a shock, though not on that scale. Mine were typically a 4 figure sum for things worth a couple of hundred pounds tops.............. multiplied a few dozen times. Every example I noted had a lot of glossy sales blurb with an image of an example of the coin provided in high grade, but the contents of the box were typically fine. The only exception being proofs where the coin was virtually as struck, but the price paid many times that of market value.

There was also a front page spread on a major collector of these artificially inflated price products.

Standing outside Corbitts sale last week we were handed a couple of cards from someone claiming to be a director of ISN which has prompted me to revisit this thread. It is probably worth considering the arguments put forward last year. Silver has not risen as claimed. 16 months ago it stood at $28/£17.83, today it is $22.30/£13.82. That's a superb return on your $96 investment for an ounce of silver - it could have underperformed big-time. I couldn't help thinking about a double page advert in the last edition of 'The Coin Probe' placed by a similar type of organisation and shown below.

I saw that.

I think anything becomes a major variety once the collector base is broad enough. This is the only way to explain the huge amounts paid for some of the trivial differences in the bronze penny series for example. Different busts or reverse designs are clearly major, in fact, anything that doesn't need a glass is significant enough to be considered major. Collectors tend to be all or nothing people. Either they collect the minutest variety as part of an in depth study, or else they collect according to the preset parameters laid down by a reference book. Once something is in print, someone will collect it. Then you have the type collector, to whom a missing dot is anathema. They just want a nice example that is obviously different from the previous and next types. Overmarks are likely to be considered significant to a series or denomination collector unless by prior restriction to the criteria. Personally I would collect overmarks, but I'm a nerd. My privy mark section in the list of things to get has 326 entries of which about half are overmarks - doubtless more will be added. As Richard said, too complicated and people switch off, but that therefore means that the collector who eats, sleeps and drinks a series will probably have the info in his head and so collect anything he can recognise. It also depends on the series being collected. Milled legend variations are major because they occur infrequently, but hammered ones are probably minor unless completely garbled because most series have a number of variations such as MAG BRI FRA or MA BR FR, or MAG BRI FR etc. As these were all valid options for the engraver, the various combinations occur with monotonous frequency, so only someone like Osborne or BCW for example will go to that depth.

For fffff...Bugger! Perhaps the 4 of us should email our top bids to a 3rd party, and the highest genuine bid goes forth, whilst the others bow gracefully out...no point in the winning bidder paying over the odds, eh? I'm interested in 2 of the lizzies - one to keep, one to sell! That, technically, is called a 'ring' and afaik it's illegal! The only difference being of course that the few people involved have no control over the other 6 or 7 billion people on the planet, whereas a single shill bidder sets an artificially higher level for the same 6 or 7 billion. It is only effective to the detriment of the seller if those few are the only people interested in bidding on the coin, which is an unlikely scenario. Equally, the pot of available funds is finite, so more money spent by someone on a coin means less is available on the next lot. Is one seller whose lot number allocated is higher than another being discriminated against?

Nonsense. I'm deficient in that department. My avatar speaks the truth.