Rob

I think 2. is a problem area, the way you've presented it. In terms of the consequences (i.e. whether mistake or not) then it ranks only below #4, in other words it could have a catastrophic effect for a buyer. However, in terms of actual intent, you'd have to place it at #1 as it is the only genuine mistake among them. So I'd have to ask - are you listing those in order of criminal intent, or are you listing them in order of their consequences on a buyer? #1 grading is a matter of opinion and is unlikely to ever be any different. Mint state is an absolute if qualified at a certain magnification as is flat with no detail. Everything in between is in the eyes of the beholder. Some people grade stricter than others, but with a degree of leeway, many grading attempts could be deemed accetable. It is as Peck says, up to the buyer to make their own judgment. As long as individuals maintain a consistent standard of grading, then there is less of a black and white case for claiming a coin is overgraded. Hands cannot be held all the time, so somewhere along the line people need to be responsible for their own actions given nobody is compelled to buy. #2 & 3 I agree with Peck. If attempting to sell a coin as genuine that you know is a fake, then that is fraud. However, mistakes have been and will be made. The Circular had a copy groat in it a while back which was withdrawn when pointed out. Yesterday's sale had a copy shilling which Richard noticed. It would be irrational to believe these were attempts to defraud anyone, so the situation for most dealers is that they hope they haven't sold/will not sell a copy by mistake. 'there but for the grace of God go I' is probably the feeling of most dealers unless they make a conscious decision to abandon a particular field to avoid any such event occurring. The case of the slabbed copy in the recent thread is unlikely to have been deliberate case to deceive on the part of NGC, rather a case of being out of their depth and trying to make a buck in a series with which they are not familiar. The person submitting it may also not have realised if sold a coin as genuine, however, submitting multiple copies for slabbing would suggest the person is digging a hole for themselves - but how would you prove it? #4 would be a criminal offence in this country, but I don't believe it is in China. Unless you were to have world-wide control over all industrial production the problem cannot be avoided. The problem therefore is one of fraud committed by people who sell coins knowing they are fakes. You cannot have a totally regulated market when the masses have the ability to set up their own businesses and effectively produce what they want. A thousand years ago when the production of money in this country was delegated to a few individuals at specific locations, you still had nefarious activities taking place whereby the coinage was copied illegally. If it isn't illegal, you can't stop it. The best you can hope for is to have the copies identified (with their own privy marks for identification) and to clamp down hard on individuals who sell copies that aren't clearly so - if necessary by Act of Parliament. This would force ebay's hand in the UK, but wouldn't and couldn't apply worldwide. The danger of regulating in this way would be that it would potentially criminalise a lot of innocent people, whilst at the same time legitimising slabbed fake items because ebay have already given them unquestionable status in the US. It might seem a bit impotent, but I don't think there is much you can do apart from covering your own backside, both as buyer and seller.

I didn't view them. I was only interested in a handful of pieces - a couple hammered pennies, and a few halfcrowns. Shillings weren't part of it.

The 1853 proof 1/2d might give a misleading result as it has verdigris on both sides. It ought to be unsold, but we shall see.

This is old news. The 80000 British coins in the hoard were bought by Baldwins in 1908 as a single lot. The market has been absorbing them for over 100 years. I suspect they will still overhang the market in another 100 years time. Bite the bullet and just go for what you fancy. The average lifespan of a human being won't allow you to time the market to perfection. Long cross pennies are a market which is unlikely ever to take off into the stratosphere, but if it does - sell.

No, they are two separate sellers, the first one allegedly in Paris, the second in Ireland. It's the unexpected abundance on ebay of coins that book above £2K in VF that made me sit up and look harder. For a smaller denomination, that is a large number.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230851407246;jsessionid=95EE3002326CC123EC61EED1247566A3?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D230851407246%26_rdc%3D1 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230853992857?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D230853992857%26_rdc%3D1 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230851424836?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D230851424836%26_rdc%3D1 The third one down has raised some issues in my mind. Also on ebay at the moment is this which is the second Henry V groat in as many days. H5 groats are quite rare with the S1762B variety quoted booking at £2500 in VF. I suspect either someone is very lucky, or skullduggery has occurred. I'm just trying to get up to speed on H4 & H5 groats but the curve is a bit steep at the moment. They aren't the same things as one has a lis on the breast and one doesn't, but I note in Potter's write up on these things that contemporary copies existed, probably produced on the continent. For the record, he also noted knowing of only half a dozen coins of some types, so it is unlikely we are looking at your everyday find.

thanks for the info. Peter And this is precisely what appeals to me! For such a pretty little coin it really surprises me that they are not greater prized. It's a pretty big series, that I think will keep my copper lusts satisfied AND within budget! Winner all round for me, especially if I can get a nice bit of provenance top-up along the way! Exactly how I see them, Peck was the first attempt and Colin Cooke also did a lot of work in the series, but Tim has taken it to another level and the detail in the catalogue is much more robust and consistent. Another series where additions keep coming to light. Sounds fun! To kick-start the little project I've just ordered 3 from a well-respected dealer! Excellent choice, particularly the Lennox. Many thanks.

..............all correct spelling will be punishable by death.

Not me! Just thinking if he had gone to the right of the Lighthouse, it would have been rarer still LOL.. I was just going to say the same thing.... Great minds and all that.... Only a handful known of those..... Only one, surely? There was one reported that made me aware of it, and I currently own one, and know of one other... so that would make at least 3.... I was thinking more in terms of the "apsolutely mint state" bun halfpenny.

More than the value of the opinion.

Not me! Just thinking if he had gone to the right of the Lighthouse, it would have been rarer still LOL.. I was just going to say the same thing.... Great minds and all that.... Only a handful known of those..... Only one, surely?

Correct, but it means that everyone can have something. Very few people could buy the lot, even within a sub-section - say all the Henry pennies or the angels etc. So just make a list of potential purchases and work your way through it. There are very few sales at the main auction houses where either/or decisions don't have to be made. You either wait for something to come along at the right price, or decide you want a particular piece however much it costs and throw the book away. Your choice. Sometimes you pick up more than expected, sometimes nothing.

There's a broad mix for everyone. The only thing missing is low grade washers, but you wouldn't sell them through an auction like that anyway. That's ebay's preserve.

I don't think anyone would accuse you of doing that.

As individuals who probably don't send any coins in for slabbing, I am not surprised the response is minimal because we don't add any value to their business, i.e we don't give them any income. A valued customer will be one who regularly submits large quantities of high value coins irrespective of artificial toning, doctored damage etc. I'm not saying they condone it, but do believe they are less critical when it comes to slabbing high grade/value items on account of the remuneration. I've had two George III R42 pattern halfpennies in slabs. One was slabbed MS61 with a note attached that it was recommended that it be sent for "conservation", whilst the other was obviously cleaner and slabbed MS65, but this was part of a very large collection (noted on the slab) that was submitted for slabbing. As for the coins, there was nothing to choose between them in terms of wear or marks, and I've seen a few.

It is a shame for sure, as I for one would've taken a chance on an NGC slab blind before seeing this! It would've been more palatable if it was a really good quality fake but, honestly, I've handled 2 examples of this cast copy, it's obvious in the extreme! Sadly for PCGS and others, it has coloured my judgement of them too! I found an NGC Elizabeth Hammered a while back that even had the wrong denomination on it. Not a three-farthing/threehalfpence confusion, but sixpence/groat (and it wasn't a roseless sixpence either). The only saving grace now is that I might, as Rob suggests, find a glaring (or subtle) error to my advantage, and that's what I am looking for now in NGC (maybe I'll find that rare roseless coin slabbed as a penny or something ). I look forward to acquiring, and hearing about other's one-upmanships in this respect! Hus has an MS65 1844 1/3 farthing I sold him that was previously in an 1844 half farthing slab. i.e it converts the cheapest Victorian currency fractional farthing into just about the most expensive. Either the TPG grader didn't notice that the words HALF FARTHING in big friendly letters (apologies to Douglas Adams) were missing, or didn't take enough care in entering the details into the computer. Take your pick.

And to add to that you can consider the case of the unique(?)George III gold halfpenny that I used to own, with a large scrape across the cheek that was removed which was subsequently slabbed as a cameo proof 64 and sold 6 months later for about £21K in London. This was two years ago. It was bought by an American dealer and presumably sold to a US collector who will therefore have paid at least $30K for a doctored coin - but we all know they don't slab doctored, damaged, fake, or any other altered coins. As has been said many times before, let them carry on to their heart's content slabbing US coins and catering to that market, but anything originating outside America is best left to people who know about these things. These failures are clearly the money tail wagging the knowledgable and ethical dog that the business is purportedly built on. Take your pick. It is either incompetence based on inadequate knowledge, or else the desire to bring in dollars without giving due consideration to the coin. You have a graded payment scale for slabbing, i.e. the more valuable the coin. the more it costs to have it slabbed. The only additional expense incurred in grading a 10K coin to one worth a few pence is the additional postaage costs incurred. The time spent assessing the coin should be approximately the same if the job is done properly. If you pay peanuts for low value coins, you cannot expect any better from the TPGs. The lesson here is that low grade slabbed coins should be viewed with suspicion, whereas high grade slabbed coins should be viewed with suspicion. When buying, make sure you treat slabs just as you would any other coin. Check for damage, wear, artificial toning etc with the caveat that there may be hidden damage on the edge of the coin which you can't see but is occasionally present and which you should allow for.

I missed the h out of farthings. I'm supprised I haven't had a few large fish wrapped around my chops It is my eldest birthday (17) and the wine has been flowing.( at least she knows her blue nun from a nice burgandy) Isn't 17 a little young for uniforms?

Although coin collectors lead a fairly solitary existence, you are not alone. PS. By the way, welcome to the forum.

Luckily for the people living in the following countries - Africa, Russian Federation, Albania, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Svalbard and Jan Mayen, Ukraine the seller is not willing to flood the market with the copies. Leaving aside the question of NGC's competence which it appears is a given, I actually wonder about the seller here. We have a listing that is priced in US$. The location of the item is Paris. The ebay id has a stop in the middle of the name which is very reminiscent of a number of Yorkshire and Lancashire based purveyors of this crap who ebay refused to deal with. Can't help wondering if there is a connection. Lots of things have been bought from China too. Given the coin has been physically handled prior to submission and they obviously feel and look wrong, any person submitting a coin will know that a pitted flan will lead to an environmental damage label, so the only reason to submit to the TPG is to accord the coin a genuine status - something which the Negligent Grading Committee have duly obliged. It now has an official seal of approval. I always wondered why the American TPGs withdrew their guarantees on world coins, but I thought they would still guarantee a coin as genuine. Methinks a large pointy hat with a big D on the front is appropriate. Why has he submitted this to NGC if he's in Paris, PCGS have an office in Paris now, why not send it there? Is he actually Fu Man Choo posing as a Frenchie?UPDATE..........Coin has been taken down I had absolutely no idea the American's had withdrawn liability! Joe and his Aunt could slab on that basis! Taken down? Now that would be something extraordinary if that was eBay led...I just can see it, with TPG's being their future baby? BONJOUR IF YOU ARE READING THIS THREAD! I thought that both NGC and PCGS had restricted their liability to a nominal sum and the limit of the guarantee was that the coin was genuine. I may be wrong about the fine detail, but I know that there was a severe cutback in guarantees. This was discussed a while ago if anyone can find the thread.

I've done very well in the past from their incompetence. They are alright as long as you do your homework, and as a bonus frequently screw up to the advantage of the observant. Mine's a pint.

Luckily for the people living in the following countries - Africa, Russian Federation, Albania, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Svalbard and Jan Mayen, Ukraine the seller is not willing to flood the market with the copies. Leaving aside the question of NGC's competence which it appears is a given, I actually wonder about the seller here. We have a listing that is priced in US$. The location of the item is Paris. The ebay id has a stop in the middle of the name which is very reminiscent of a number of Yorkshire and Lancashire based purveyors of this crap who ebay refused to deal with. Can't help wondering if there is a connection. Lots of things have been bought from China too. Given the coin has been physically handled prior to submission and they obviously feel and look wrong, any person submitting a coin will know that a pitted flan will lead to an environmental damage label, so the only reason to submit to the TPG is to accord the coin a genuine status - something which the Negligent Grading Committee have duly obliged. It now has an official seal of approval. I always wondered why the American TPGs withdrew their guarantees on world coins, but I thought they would still guarantee a coin as genuine. Methinks a large pointy hat with a big D on the front is appropriate.

According to E C Linton in the BNJ vol.29 p.192, item 6 in the facts known notes that there is a gap in the mint records for 1848-52. The article concerned halfcrowns, but if the same holds for all denominations it seems unlikely that it would be possible to resolve this question conclusively. A query to the RM museum ought to clarify this. What we do know is that there was an overhang of spare dies for halfcrowns and shillings dated 1846 due to the occurence of the 1848/6 in both cases. The existence of the 1848/7 and 1849/7 halfcrown show that some dies were prepared for use in 1847, but not required unless a straight 1847 turns up. With no known 1847 shillings and just a solitary sixpence, any output must have been minimal. The existence of the 1848/7 sixpence lends credibility to the sole 1847 example being genuine. For what it is worth, during 1848 a total of 91,872 halfcrowns were struck and based on the numbers extant, most must have been struck from 1848/6 dated dies. Only 1 or 2 dies at most were 1848/7 which had to be from the 16 obverse dies cut during 1847 but presumably mostly undated. The 1848 without the overdate ought to be from the same batch of 16 cut in 1847. At the beginning of the year, a total of 13 1846 dated dies were available but not all necessarily used. Knowing that 22 dies dated 1846 were consumed in 1847 and that a total of 367,488 halfcrowns were struck in this year, an average of just under 17000 coins per die can be derived. This low figure can be explained by the known fact that the mint was concerned with the sort life of a die at the time. It therefore implies that about half a dozen 2/6d dies were employed in 1848. I would assume that any data available for the life of penny dies dated 1847 and 1848 could probably be sensibly compared to the halfcrown, as the steel bar used from stock would probably be from the same batch given the similarity of dimensions for the two denominations. Additionally, it may well explain the number of overstruck dates 8/7 and 8/6 which may have been brought into use to counteract the short die lifetimes experienced. Moving to 1849 and 1850 shillings. If the mint outputs are known for these two years and the relative abundance of 1849 1850/49 and 1850 shillings is documented, by combining those figures with a life expectancy guesstimate for the dies it may be possible to arrive at an approximate figure. Any resolution of the die lifetime problem would reduce the number of dies proportionately and probably in equal measure for the two years as the large output of Godless florins in 1849 suggests that on the whole they had overcome the problems to at least some extent. As to the question of rare dates being held back in greater percentage terms than common dates, I would think it should be possible to use the survival rates of the 1848 halfcrowns from a known quantity struck as a reference because these are also known to be the rarest of the early halfcrowns along with 1841. Hocking doesn't list anything useful in the RM museum for these dates. Thoughts anyone?

Oh dear

In the period 1847-50, silver issues were a bit screwed up. This was probably due to contuinuing indecision regarding a change to a decimal currency which had been mooted in the first half of the decade. If you look at halfcrowns for example, there were a good number of unused dies left over 1846 following a large issue in the previous two years. A handful were struck in 1847 and some in 1848. Dies were prepared for 1847, but not apparently used until 1848. No shillings are known for 1847 and only a solitary sixpence. It wasn't until 1849 that a large quantity of silver was struck. The quantity of Godless florins produced probably meant that fewer shillings were struck in 1849 than was originally intended when the anticipated output was decided. The number of dies presumably proved to be too numerous for the achieved output meaning that most shillings in 1850 were using the previous year's date, while a handful were cut to see out the year end. Politics also came into it somewhere with some people favouring decimalisation with others against.