Rob

Neither. It is toy money which was never intended to circulate or deceive.

Why are you buying damaged coins? Just because they are the first thing you find? I see you are quite young and by extension new to the game. You must learn to cultivate some patience because you might have to wait months or years for the right coin to come along.

Clearly his knowledge of history is as good as his grading. First 1901 Edward VII coin I've seen Given the predominance of shite offered, does he buy it or produce it? You have to suspect the latter. Take a grotty, dull, worn and otherwise unattractive coin. Brillo it and make a grotty, shiny, worn and otherwise unattractive coin. If people could be held accountable for their claims, he'd be in serious trouble. There must be a lot of very unhappy sellers somewhere down the line.

EF reverse, the obverse better. Probably gEF with the small rim mark. I'm not getting the lustre either.

If you have a price list from the last 2 or 3 years, the numbers quoted for low to middle grades haven't shifted much and would be a good approximation to current values. Only the price of bullion would be variable. I assume you are a collector as you have identified a Davies die pairing, which is too esoteric for a total novice.

Ir was'nt big enough? In the absence of any evidence of the item in question, any claim was sure to be rejected.

His grading is certainly divorced from any other appraisals being at least a grade over from what I've seen, but the hiding of edge defects is common to all. I've have half half a dozen from NGC or PCGS over the years which looked good front and back, but I wouldn't have bought them based on the hidden side view which of course you only find out on liberation. I guess the temptation to slab an EF early Georgian copper is compelling to the person submitting if they know the TPG will give it a grade irrespective of concealable defect. If these hidden defects were noted it would be ok, but they aren't. Flaws on early coppers are more common and a consequence more acceptable - but only at a price.

I know there has been a lot of ribbing on here regarding BNTA members, but it isn't without warrant! I am beginning to think the logo isn't worth the computer it was designed on! 'this next statement is just for fun, please don't bust an artery getting all chewed up about it,' but I think you could MORE reliably buy a slab! I concur. I think there is probably a greater chance of a slab being identified as such than a coin being given the correct id.

I get the impression NNC is a one man band who puts whatever number he thinks of first on the slab. Looking at many of his slabs, if it says 62 think 26, if UNC think VF. Only buy from this guy if you absolutely are certain what you are doing. He isn't alone in hiding edge damage though as I've also had NGC and PCGS slabs which have hidden defects. As a result, I tend to automatically mark a slab down unless I know the particular coin in question having seen it in the hand previously. You also have to consider the difference between an American EF and a UK EF. Generally speaking, a British EF will be in an AU holder.

Why do you want to send all the swimming pools, tennis court etc to Manchester?

A lot. I spent some time working for the Financial Ombudsman Service and essentially we started with the assumption that the claimant was in the right. Certain occupations - teachers, policemen (sorry John) were prevalent in making claims and a fair few won despite the fact that you knew in your heart of hearts that they were being somewhat economical with the truth, you just couldn't put your finger on it. In my time there, the assumption was made that professionals such as solicitors or accountants should really have known what they were doing and would have had the nous to read the small print and ask questions. However, I understand that has now changed and solicitors are now claiming like there is no tomorrow. So either we've got the worst legal profession in the world, or someone is pulling a fast one. Bizarre. I do have a degree of sympathy with anyone (apart from the above) who was mis-sold Payment Protection Insurance however as it was normally an add-on to something else, such as a pension. The cost was usually a fraction of the overall total and as such people tended to disregard it. When you add up many years worth of payments however, it does come to a tidy sum. I think this and other similar situations are endemic across society, irrespective of background. 20 years ago my sister used to arrange mortgages for a high street lender. When the s**t hit the fan in the early 90s, you've guessed it. The biggest problems were with self-certified incomes by the legal profession and accountants. i.e. their application could be tailored to achieve the desired result. Compensation now appears to be a major pre-occupation of this country. Whiplash claims, trips, mis-selling, contents losses etc. Why work when you can get something for nothing? Sad really.

You can distract Peter with some fat cigars and me with a bottle of vintage Talisker. It'll take more than one bottle if we're talking about early pennies. As for favourite monarch, I've got a soft spot for Edward the Confessor. A very interesting reign and a somewhat 'human' king. Not to mention that I'm enamoured with his coinage... Nae chance wi' the 18 year old Tally me thinks! You'd be quite amazed how many I have converted in Ukraine with that Aqua de Vita. Had a glass of talisker over 20 years ago, never found a better whiskey to-date, and it's not for want of trying as many others as opportunity presents! I've always appreciated a glass of Linkwood. Just had a quick look on the net, I might give it a try! Their 1981 runs at 56.9% doubt I'll be able to afford that one! But it is extremely nice.

You can distract Peter with some fat cigars and me with a bottle of vintage Talisker. It'll take more than one bottle if we're talking about early pennies. As for favourite monarch, I've got a soft spot for Edward the Confessor. A very interesting reign and a somewhat 'human' king. Not to mention that I'm enamoured with his coinage... Nae chance wi' the 18 year old Tally me thinks! You'd be quite amazed how many I have converted in Ukraine with that Aqua de Vita. Had a glass of talisker over 20 years ago, never found a better whiskey to-date, and it's not for want of trying as many others as opportunity presents! I've always appreciated a glass of Linkwood.

Given it has been messily plugged, that's a lot of dosh. Heads up for anyone who's interested, the Briot hammered halfcrown is the one that was unregcognised as a type by Lockdales a couple of years ago - hence the estimate of £30! CNG bought it there and paid under £1K. They had it on their site at $2450 for a while and it didn't sell, so has gone in the auction. Good provenance on it being ex-Cumberland Clark, Farquhar, Dupree, Hopkins and Pritchard. There are a few stress marks, but it isn't a bad example.

You're cheap Scott, go for the halfcrown Go for a ninepence or sixpence - far less common. Better still a flat crown shilling where there are only a couple dozen or so survivors.

Spend a little bit on a course on how not to be taken in by sales pitches.

Their prices have been too high for the last few years now. In 2005 I bought a nice James I 1/2d mullet over bell for just over £50 all in, which wasn't cheap, but not OTT at the time. Maybe they have decided that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Ebay is full of overpriced tat and a few billion potential buyers who haven't a clue what they are bidding on or buying, so perhaps they are just trying to milk the market. Nobody is obliged to bid or buy, and at those prices hopefully nobody from this forum will waste their money.

No, not replicas (though these and fakes do exist). The pattern 1933 pennies were designed by André Lavrillier with a supposedly more 'military' looking George V. The reverse is very similar to the actual issue, except that Britannia has a thicker trident and the waves are different. One of the patterns is uniface (just the obverse). The Lavrillier 1933s are contemporary with, but even rarer than regular 1933s, though do not command quite the prices (it's a difficult one to call as any 1933 appears so rarely). The first picture I ever saw of them was in an old edition of Collectors Coins GB. I think the reference to replicas and copies requires both the highlighted sentence and the previous one to be considered together. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I tink Mongo was referring to the numerous modern pieces dated 1933 appearing on ebay. You don't get very many Lavrillier patterns listed, unsurprisingly.

Damn, missed it! Oh, no, it's been taken off, so no image! Bugger! What a shame. It was the first time I'd seen a Chas I coin with the bust facing right, sat on an upside-down crown too. Should have been kept for posterity.

Common date and it has been scrubbed, so probably about fair value. £15 max. An acetone bath won't get rid of the scratches which is the main detracting feature and there is no underlying lustre to bring out because the surfaces have already been compromised. It doesn't have eye appeal IMO as the washed out appearance suggests it has also been dipped.

Good fine, the reverse maybe slightly better, so a thousand pound coin ish. Halfcrowns are much, much harder to find in decent grade for this issue than the crowns. You tend to hit a brick wall around VF in terms of availability.

Forgive me Rob. I was going to reply to this, but then I realised... I have no idea what you are talking about! I will have to start learning all these terms, I have just about got my head around what a pattern is. The joys of being a newb! A pattern is a design which wasn't adopted for currency. Some are wildly different from the currency pieces, others have only subtle differences but are still patterns because they weren't adopted. Somewhere along the line, somebody will have catalogued the dies of the various patterns which then becomes the standard reference for that series. In the case of the Huth pattern double florins, ESC lists some in silver, platinum and gold with a footnote that other metal strikes were also produced - iron, copper, zinc, etc (tin, lead, cadmium). Linecar & Stone (English Proof and Pattern Crown Size Pieces, Spink 1968) lists the die combinations they could positively identify, but this as noted above has an error for L&S21. There is one obverse die (1), 4 reverses (A-D) and 4 edges (i-iv). So 1Aii refers to obverse 1, reverse A and edge ii. Lingford had probably the definitive collection of crowns in British numismatic history which was sold at Glendining in October 1950. He also had a vast collection of most other things, but only the James I and Scottish went through the saleroom with the rest acquired by Baldwins following his death. Thanks for the lesson Rob. How much do I owe you? Patterns are starting to sound a little more interesting now... are they struck at the mint, privately for engravers to exhibit their work, or both? I am intrigued. I see "patterns" on ebay, very cheap. I saw some 1933 pennies described as patterns, I am asuming these are not the real thing, but rather modern replica's? Sounds like a whole new world of coin collecting! Correct on the last point. Patterns in my view should be a series produced contemporary with the items they would replace if adopted and can be produced at both the mint or privately. So a 1933 penny is a straightforward copy/replica which has been produced in recent years to satisfy the demand for the unobtainable and is not a pattern. There is no prospective currency for the modern 1933 pennies to be used. If they were 2012 pennies, but with an alternative design, then they would be patterns as the mint could choose to adopt them for future issues. Modern repros are produced in bulk, whereas a genuine contemporary pattern is likely to have a very low mintage, up to a dozen or two struck of a particular type would be typical, but maybe only half a dozen or fewer.

Forgive me Rob. I was going to reply to this, but then I realised... I have no idea what you are talking about! I will have to start learning all these terms, I have just about got my head around what a pattern is. The joys of being a newb! A pattern is a design which wasn't adopted for currency. Some are wildly different from the currency pieces, others have only subtle differences but are still patterns because they weren't adopted. Somewhere along the line, somebody will have catalogued the dies of the various patterns which then becomes the standard reference for that series. In the case of the Huth pattern double florins, ESC lists some in silver, platinum and gold with a footnote that other metal strikes were also produced - iron, copper, zinc, etc (tin, lead, cadmium). Linecar & Stone (English Proof and Pattern Crown Size Pieces, Spink 1968) lists the die combinations they could positively identify, but this as noted above has an error for L&S21. There is one obverse die (1), 4 reverses (A-D) and 4 edges (i-iv). So 1Aii refers to obverse 1, reverse A and edge ii. Lingford had probably the definitive collection of crowns in British numismatic history which was sold at Glendining in October 1950. He also had a vast collection of most other things, but only the James I and Scottish went through the saleroom with the rest acquired by Baldwins following his death.

That is cheating, you have to pick one! or Huth Now that is a nice portrait! very smart. I like the toga, is that one of your Patterns? Yes. It's a 1911 pattern double florin struck by Pinches for Reginald Huth. Linecar & Stone dies 1Aii. Just discovered an error in L&S today (as I was chasing a provenance of a 1Ci dies in Zinc recently acquired which has thrown up a real can of worms). They list the iron pattern as dies 1Bii (L&S21) based on an example in the Lingford catalogue (1950), but the catalogue description clearly relates to a 1Aii die combination. The weight of the Lingford piece at 420 grains is within 1 grain of this coin and the description of a little rust agrees with the spot by the truncation and the lower eyelid. So quite possibly it was Lingford 637 but unfortunately this was not illustrated.

Actually, although I don't collect them, I think some of the ancient Greek portraits are superb.