Rob

Blame it on insecurity. The minute you have natural toning which can take on any form there is an automatic assumption that it's hiding something, whereas a monotonous colour from dipping will show all the detail evenly. Bizarre really when you think about it - so many people who are happily taking a coin that has knowingly been dipped and therefore messed with a bit, in preference to a coin that may or may not have possibly been played with.

Ironically enough, unlike currency a proof is less collectable if defective as they were never intended for circulation. For these, the closer to perfection, the greater the desirability and hence value. Mistruck proofs are decidedly rare, though you get some patterns such as the Victorian decimal series where defective flans are the norm for certain types. The number of proof and pattern collectors is considerably lower than for currency, though most will collect both. The number of proof or pattern only collectors is minimal.

The silence is deafening. Just a reminder to anyone who can but hasn't contributed so far. Any grade coin is ok as long as the image is good enough. Thanks to those who have sent images.

I'm looking for as many of their previous lists as possible. There have been about 70 prior to today. If anyone has any duplicates or surplus to requirements, please PM me. Thanks.

It certainly is "Ultra Rare" - the only coin in existence that is Fine, Very Fine, and Extremely Fine, at one and the same time!! I was going to say it is ultra rare. Certainly the only one I've seen in VF-EF looking like that.

OPPS????? Make it 52 years and call it quits.

The only tea time related story would have been Spam. (sorry) A few of the regulars from 7 or 8 years ago were minors who have now grown up and moved on. Geoff T commented one day about William, who he met in his post school years at the RNCM in Manchester where he was studying. There will always be losses for this reason, but less explicable are those who post hundreds of times in the space of months only to disappear.

If you look at the poll I did regarding who has literature, there were just over 30 people contributed. Some regular names were missing, but many were there. A couple of these appear to have stopped posting, but we have added others. A core of 40-50 therefore seem appropriate bulked out by a similar number, possibly slightly fewer, who post intermittently, but have done so over a long period of time. A lot of members have never posted, but register just to add their contact details with an email or website address. This is almost never coin related. Chris will have to answer the second question.

Can't be a bad thing to get away from this "Gentlemans club" way of dealing!! I think if this sort of thing was still going on in todays market then the prospect of another bust would be much stronger! The choicest pieces will always find their way into the hands of a select few. Granted we all have 24/7 access to coins, but if you have something special in whatever issue, then there will always be a person with a lot of money willing to take it off your hands. Those things don't come to market as a rule, being sold privately, with or wothout an intermediary. It's the path of least resistance for a dealer as well.

Anyone buying today has an uphill task relative to the collectors or dealers of 40 or 50 years ago as the price of coins relative to inflation has vastly outstripped the latter. Looking back through old catalogues at the prices obtained at auction, 6 or 7 years ago I was using a multiplier of about 50 times for Lockett coins coming back on the market, so a £10 coin in the mid-late 50s was selling for about £500 in 2005ish. That multiple has increased to nearer 100 times today for many items. That applies as a rough guide to silver. For copper and bronze the increase is even more mind-boggling because relatively few people collected them prior to the 1960s. Although only an anecdote, the increase in prices was put into perspective by a collector who casually mentioned that a certain coin cost him one shilling and threepence in the 1940s. Today that coin books in Spink at over £1K in fine!

I'm going for a reworked die because there doesn't appear to be any doubling of the bust detail and the displacement of the letters is in different directions, most are in the same direction, but a few aren't.

What did lot 2579 go for? Thanks

The reverse looks a bit odd. The initial cross on the reverse is suspect as is the ON with the disjointed diagonal bar and I'm not sure about the straight bar on the closed E of HENRI. Having said that, it is double struck, so you can get odd looking letters as a result. Clive might have a large enough selection of short cross from this moneyer to die link if possible as they are quite common. I'm afraid I've only got one example of a John which is a 5b1/5a2 and the reverse is double struck, though it is an enigmatic coin where the reverse reads IOHAN ON LUND, which is thought to be a mistake for either a Canterbury or an East Anglian mint signature. The 5b has a pelleted S which helps identification. Pics attached if they are of any use.

Drop me an email if you want me to bid, Rob. Thanks Steve, but the images arrived two days ago for the lot I was considering and as a result became less interested. I've gone from being willing to push the boat out to seeing if I can get it cheaply with a view to selling on. I'll probably lose out to those that collect by numbers though.

I'm in two minds. I only want one lot.

If the 16 include the D1/2, a decent Sceptre and the AVSSPCE, count me in for £2K. The first is particularly unattractive.

Unfortunately East Anglia is nowhere near where I live. My local soil is sandy, to the extent that a couple feet down you can use it straight from the ground for mortar, but much of the local soil contains a few hundred years of industrial activity. Mind you, things are getting better. I remember seeing a duck on the river in 1978-9 for the first time since I had moved to Manchester, and now it even has fish because someone pulled a 14lb pike out 5 years ago.

And for good measure, here's one that hasn't been dipped or dug. A Charles I York shilling with nearly all its original lustre. Just a bit missing off the top left serif of the XII and thinning on the cheekbone.

The Cambridge Cnut penny I have for sale on the website is not cleaned. There was a hoard that all came out looking like this. The soil on the east side of the country is dry and sandy in many instances, so you get fewer water damaged surfaces. It's the continual contact with water or at least regular contact and what is in solution that causes the change in tones. The tone of one coin is usually replicated through the hoard, reflecting the common exposure.

I've got a 1731 shilling in virtually mint state with full dusty lustre, but that was hermetically sealed in a Georgian drinking glass base until the glass broke a few years ago, so I cracked it out. (it's the one in the confirmed unlisted varieties section) Actually, you can go back indefinitely in time if a coin was part of a hoard. Greek and Roman coins are regularly found with full originally lustred surfaces

I'd better not take part. I find surveys very stressful and completely pointless. The last one I took part in while waiting for a plane at Manchester Airport annoyed me so much at the cold-call style intrusion that I gave my income as £300K and my social group as E. She stopped writing after the last answer and I was left in peace.

This seems far too complicated e.g. separate fields for each grade unless that is you intend to obtain many examples of the same coin. A lot of the info you have listed isn't something you would want to search which would be the main reason for keeping field data separate. It would be far better to keep most data in a simple file containg all the data you would never need to search. Unless that is you have a system like Declan who can undoubtedly tell me that a coin struck in brass, in VF grade, that cost £2.74, is dated 1914, weighs 4.3g, that has a Spink reference number of 1234, gives you a value of 42. (Sorry Douglas)

Hi Debbie, Rob has said just about everything I could have told you about the coin. And yes, I believe there are only 3 or 4 of the 1844 dated pennies in existence. I also have one of the spelling error (PENNEY instead of PENNY) coins which are fun. One Moore (sorry) thing to add. At least you have the start of a provenance, this coin being the same one as illustrated by David Magnay in Debbie's link (see matching discolouration pattern). If I can remember/find where Magnay sold his model coinage, I'll see if there is any further provenance. I do know they weren't part of his fractionals and 1860 pattern pennies sale at DNW on 3/2/1999.

A pattern penny by Joseph Moore, struck in 1844, though there are also undated pennies and halfpennies which are much more common and can be picked up for a few pounds. The piece in question is a Peck 2088. Joseph Moore was a Birmingham die sinker who alos produced a number of patterns dated 1860. The model coins were produced in considerable numbers and found favour with the public who had to carry around the heavy mint pennies in the normal course of trade. The diameter for the model pennies is 22.5mm compared to 34 for the mint product. They are also thinner. They were so popular that the mint had to dislaim any responsibility for them.

Yes but, as I said, many coins like this are found each year that are 'unique' with regards to new types, new moneyers, new combinations, etc. I don't see them on the website. To fill in the missing words for all those who are unaware. North (1994) has William I coins struck at Gloucester in types 1-3,5,7 & 8. This is a sword (type 6) penny. The other gap was a two sceptres, which if I remember rightly there was a cracked example by the same moneyer on eBay last summer. Not sure how many others there are though - Clive?.