Rob

Generally speaking, special items outside the scope of normal contents insurance seems to cost about 1/2% of the sum insured. Does this figure apply for all(?) insurers - so £50/£10K insured seems typical. There may be additional clauses requiring alarms (redcare or stand alone), lock types etc which boosts the actual cost but these vary from one insurer to another and with the sum insured, obviously the higher the value the more security features they want.

Nope

See my article in the Circular regarding these coins and relate it to the 1839/41 proof halfpenny in the confirmed unlisted varieties section. If you could PM me a really hi res scan of both sides or alternatively send it to my website, it would be appreciated. Thanks.

Presumably with an inverted die axis?

I quite agree, but you would have thought that your average bloke who is suspicious of anything on offer for a tenner in the pub would then be equally suspicious of an £800 coin on sale for £100 or less. Beginners always dip their toes in the water with a few cheap purchases before committing large sums, so the lack of books at this point is understandable. What is not is the readiness with which people spend ever larger amounts based on their success with minor purchases. If the value of the coins is worth insuring, then it is worth the purchaser ensuring to their own satisfaction that the insured items are kosher.

Which is why I said read the documentary evidence. If you know what is out there you are less likely to get your fingers burnt. Even die struck modern copies in the right metal will have some tell-tale indicators which mark them out as copies. It might be a small flaw, it might be a number of pits in the same place on all coins, but all copies will have something that identifies them as such. It isn't only ebay. Some of those copies are going to get into dealers' general inventory. Anyone spending money ought to at least check what they are buying. It's not unreasonable.

I think provenance is a good start, although how do you do that with every single coin Rob? You also stated 2 things, 1 Do your own research, which yes can be done, but then you 2nd point lead to a slight hitch is the 1st point, if auction houses are having difficulty telling these apart then how are the more general or weekend buyers going to achieve this? Some people just don't sit and look at coins all day as their business, only as their hobby, we tend to rely on dealers and acution houses to give us the real deal. So what now? I've seen one on ebay.co.uk (850 quid) and to be honest i don't know if its the real deal or not, personally it doesn't look real, but again i really don't know, so if anyone could shed some light on WHY these coins are not genuine i think it would help others on the forum other than having to dig away and perhaps come up with the wrong conclusion You don't have to look at coins all day to learn about the various forgeries in circulation. Ken Peters wrote a very useful tome called the Counterfeit coins of England and the United Kingdom which lists hundreds of references for various denominations and issues and retails at £25. It is one of the best uses of £25 that I can think of. Complete? - never can be, but there is more than enough information in there to point you in the direction of what you need to read. How many have I sold to date? Answer 1. Spadework isn't sexy. Buying £1000 coins for £10 is however. There is a seeming reluctance on the part of people to do anything other than trawl eBay for apparent bargains and then complain when everything isn't what it seems. Sure the plethora of 1933 penny copies is obvious to all and sundry, but many iffy coins are not so obvious. Most sellers are basically honest, and so if you decide you have bought a dud for whatever reason they will take it back. If you have bought a gVF George IV crown for a few hundred pounds for example, it should be incumbent on you to at least make some rudimentary checks such as weight, appearance etc. The best way for individuals to protect themselves from forgeries or copies is to spend less time complaining about what is or could be out there and more time reading so they know what is out there and documented. You can't rely on others to sort out all the problems. If that was the case you wouldn't even bother looking at images before buying as a description would be adequate. When you buy a coin you assess it for grade and any problems; checking that a coin appears to be genuine based on the knowledge of what forgeries are out there is only an extension of that way of thinking. Put bluntly, I don't understand why people are prepared to blindly spend thousands of pounds on coins, but won't spend a few hundreds on literature. Anyone can miss a forgery, even people who have looked at coins all their lives, so surely the onus is on the individual to fully implement the phrase caveat emptor and cut out another individual's opinion/personality/behaviour etc - something over which you have no control, and grasp the nettle yourself. We aren't talking about the kid spending his couple pounds of pocket money here and being taken for a ride, we are talking about grown up people with disposable income who seem to be more intent on spending that surplus come what may than ensuring they are purchasing a sound product which they would automatically do if it was a car, mobile phone etc. At the end of the day, nobody is forced to buy a coin. Most people get stung by the purchase of something that seems too good to be true. Greed overrules common sense (something that is flogged to death by eBay) but then that same individual claims to be aggrieved that their 1933 penny which cost them a tenner isn't the real deal.

As I have said a few time before, a decent provenance never harmed a coin's value. If you have a 1763 1/- with a provenance predating the recent issues, then you are pretty much onto a winner. I simply don't understand the indifference of some collectors to a good provenance. Yes it will require you to pay full market value for a coin in all probability, but if you look after your own interests (which includes doing your own research) then there is no reason why the "dodgy issues" shouldn't be collected. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN COLLECTING HABITS INSTEAD OF LIVING IN A NANNY STATE WHERE NOBODY SAYS MEA CULPA OR TAKES THE LEAD There have always been forgeries, even in the Montagu or Morrieson cabinets for example, so clearly even the experienced can be taken in by a good one. They did tend to be weeded out fairly well though. The recent spate of copies has moved the goalposts by orders of magnitudes.

They are the designers' initials. KG = (G) Kruger Gray WG = William Gardner

Hi Rob Many thanks for your reply. The weight is 24.2 Grams, Thickness is 2.5 mm, and Diameter is about 40 mm. After much trawling of the net i managed to find this old description of a coin from an auction which seems to be similar? My link Here is a larger pic of the coin Image of the relevant lot is attached below. Is your picture cropped to give the impression of a round raised rim as the larger image suggests the teeth go all the way to the edge? If so, this puts a slightly different complexion on things. The weight is ok for a brass piece with the dimensions given and the letter alignment together with the shape of the letters suggests it could be genuine. The RA are slightly misaligned in both cases and there is a cluster of rust spots below the bust which suggests it is taken from the original dies and is not a modern production. While there are more rust spots on the catalogue image, this need not necessarily be a problem as Taylor acquired the dies in a rusted state and progressively polished them so that restrikes appear less rusted the later their production. The original Soho pieces struck in 1811 are found rust free, but there may be some later strikings in the period up to 1850. I would be interested in seeing this in the hand, but from the images it could be genuine.

There's no mention in Linecar & Stone of an obverse uniface of the Philp bust. The thing that strikes me as odd obout it the sharpness of the rim, or even the fact that it has a raised rim at all. The design was used for the 1811 5/6d Bank Tokens and other patterns, but the rims were as the 1804 dollar which has the toothed border to the edge with no raised rim. W J Taylor made some restrikes using this bust and legend from dies acquired at the Soho Mint closure sale in 1850, but again these do not have a rim of appreciable width. It is clearly copied from the above, but immediate thoughts are that it is likely to be a modern concoction. Weight, thickness and diameter?

It looks like a contemporary forgery from the image. There should be a scoll on the harp base, not a blob. And the posture of the harp figure isn't right. The detail on your coin looks like a mannequin being too stylistic as the 1769 Irish 1/2d has quite a lot of intricate detail which even when worn wouldn't give the rounded body sections

Probably. From those I've looked at there appears to be one with the obvious modification of the 2 but little or nothing on the 0 (as yours), but there is also a die with a clear 9 loop inside the 0 and a much more nebulous 1 under the 2.

One of these?

I think it's ok. The obverse has ghosting which a copy wouldn't want to show and it matches the position relative to the split. The basic problem with the coin is the corrosion. The previous environment could also leave a stable silver compound on the surface which doesn't react to the test in the same way. Weight and dimensions are good starting points to eliminate a dud. If it is within a few percent of full weight it is unlikely to be pewter. The thickness on the casts is a good indicator too as they are approaching that of a piedfort in many cases. The few dodgy E1 sixpences I have seen to date weighed about 4.00g, which combined with a density typically 15% lower than that of silver results in a coin approaching twice the normal thickness. Does anyone have a picture of a genuine copy or forgery?

There isn't anything to suggest it is wrong looking at it, i.e. the mark is correct for 1575 as are the legends, the bust is 5A, the leaf style is type 14 and the shield is type 38. What is the weight? The coin won't ring correctly because it has a crack. A sixpence should be about 3.00g. The only problem is the condition resulting from a few centuries in the ground.

Mrs N had one of the more interesting identifiers. She stored her coins in 2x2 envelopes with a spider's web on the flap. see attached pic for an example.

This adds a completely different dimension. It's not only provenance, but it adds to the history of numismatics as well. Perhaps we should all write something like this when we sell a coin. Sadly I don't think many of our missives would survive though. I always write a ticket for a collection coin whether it is the Churchill crown or a unique coin. Details of the collection reference, ruler, denomination, weight, Spink/Peck/ESC reference number and any other important feature go on the front, purchase details and provenance on the back. Thankfully(?) I don't have too many two ticket provenances as I have difficulty fitting in more than 10 previous owners together with sale dates and lot numbers. I always pass on the ticket(s) if the coin gets sold. Hm, anyone interested in owning my FileMaker Pro record for a coin? It's all there - picture, date bought, where from, how much, condition, values in Spink each year since purchase, location, etc. One small problem, it is digital! You are correct about the problem. A coin ticket will fit into the wallet for the coin when it goes to auction. Your computer definitely wouldn't fit. For anyone interested in modern coins only, the importance of tickets and the information given is only really relevant for rare proofs or patterns. When there are literally thousands of pieces available in top grade the provenance is immaterial, however, when the number of coins extant is in single figures or low double figures then the identification becomes somewhat easier. Tickets have a part to play in determining authenticity too as you would have to forge tickets in the handwriting of the owner whose coin a copy purports to be.

This adds a completely different dimension. It's not only provenance, but it adds to the history of numismatics as well. Perhaps we should all write something like this when we sell a coin. Sadly I don't think many of our missives would survive though. I always write a ticket for a collection coin whether it is the Churchill crown or a unique coin. Details of the collection reference, ruler, denomination, weight, Spink/Peck/ESC reference number and any other important feature go on the front, purchase details and provenance on the back. Thankfully(?) I don't have too many two ticket provenances as I have difficulty fitting in more than 10 previous owners together with sale dates and lot numbers. I always pass on the ticket(s) if the coin gets sold.

You do get 4 pieces in there, so it isn't as bad as might first appear. Does anyone know how many were made and who the designer was?

Ah, I get you now. I wasn't quite sure what you meant at first. I didn't think you could have meant the simple descriptions supplied by coin dealers with the coins they sell (eg: "1951 penny in EF, very rare", type of thing) Here is a good idea of the type of things that you can get. The ludicrously large (~48mm dia.) ticket on the left is for the smallest hammered halfpenny ever produced and is with a ticket from the Marshall collection. The smaller round one is by R C Lockett and has details on the reverse referencing the source of the coin which was the Longbottom sale in 1934; whilst the third is a hand made ticket by H Webb whose collection was mostly sold in 1894-5, though a few pieces were retained by the family and eventually dispersed around WW2. This was one of the latter and was acquired by Lockett, but subsequently added to by the purchaser who noted the Lockett lot number on the reverse. Tracing the history of individual coins is fascinating.

Happily I was asleep. Phew.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with you. I'm 100% behind you on this one. The info on past tickets can also be useful when tracing the provenance. Coupled with a good library you can establish a long history of ownership. For the uninitiated, there was an article in the 2001 BNJ on the tickets of major hammered collectors, though nothing has been done for the milled series.

Hmmm, exceptionally rare, but with a starting bid of only £99.00 this time. Nice coin, nevertheless. Starting at £99 it's a bargain, but as an example you could do a lot better. As the halfpennies were never issued for circulation you should always look for one in top grade. This one isn't. The reverse looks particularly abused and the obverse verdigris spot doesn't help. P1157 isn't the commonest variety, though certainly obtainable with patience.

I've bought one coin off him in the past. Described as gEF when sold and as described in the hand. Most would have listed it as unc on ebay, so no complaints based on experience. The 1849 looks gVFish.