Rob

In any coin series there are certain dates and varieties that might be exceptionally rare in mint state (the 1827 penny for example). In the US, we've taken this concept of condition rarity to the extreme where we actually differentiate rarities based on eleven grades of mint state ranging from 60 to 70. There are even "population reports' on the numbers of each variety encapsulated at the various mint state grade levels (60 to 70) and many collectors and dealers religiously follow and rely on these reports to determine how "rare" a coin might be, for example, in MS-65 versus MS-64. So even a very common coin of which millions were struck and of which millions are known in mint state can be considered "rare" because very few have been awarded an MS-65 versus an MS-64. This is a purely artificial definition of rarity created to enrich the grading services and the dealers whom they serve. Oftimes many thousands of dollars are lost and gained on the basis of such nonsense. So on that basis, a coin graded Crap02 must be phenomenally rare, certainly rarer than mint state pieces. There is hope for my circulated 1967 penny yet.

It's in the archived catalogues section on Spink's website. 1st Dec. 2005 if the link doesn't work. Adams Update - Copy and paste the page viewed doesn't work for some reason.

Dubious yes, but at only 89p each on a buy it now an obvious BARGAIN

It looks similar to lot 406 in the Adams sale see picture attached. File size is not very large as it was taken from the website. It also has H over R in HI. If this is also obvious then it has to be.

Historically, the best known has always commanded a serious premium to the rest and is likely to do so ad infinitum. I personally have always been willing to pay over book for the best or close to best piece available sometimes at prices at least twice book or more. The problem is the prices being paid for bits that are nowhere near the best which is the thought that started this thread. The not quite there pieces - say EF, are now drawing away from VF grades and creating a large gulf in prices for very little improvement in grade. This is where I think the market is likely to come unstuck and tears may well be shed when the time comes to cash in. At these lower grades of gVF - EF, eye appeal is probably the better option unless the piece is desperately rare anyway.

Peter, slightly off topic but.... Not being au fait with 1721 farthings, are they particularly rare and underpriced in Spink. A price of £100 or so for a VF coin doesn't suggest it is desperately difficult to acquire in this grade.

I'm afraid this is not a proof. It is a worn currency piece and is worth a few pounds, say £10 at most. A proof typically has mirror fields, very sharp rims/edges which also tend to be wider, high quality lettering that is sharply cut so that the characters have angular features and not rounded from the top to the sides and finally, if there is edge milling it is very sharp to the fingers.

I don't think the last I has ever been there. That's the sort of thing I'd buy.

A dealer who I won't name was complaining bitterly the other day about Americans pushing prices up over here. If they think the coin will go MS64 or better, the price will be driven by American demand and not grade. The problem of course is that US grading puts an MS grade on most things if they are EF or better. And if it doesn't get the grade you want first time around, send it back until the grading company agrees with your assessment.

The bit in brackets is significant. There are virtually no top grade pieces available to buy. The high prices are being paid for not particularly good examples and are certainly not being bought with a view to collectability when the market is soft. It's a bit like this, i.e. it must be good coz somone's started it at £100. You can't see a picture, and I'm convinced that many people aren't looking at the coin with a critical eye. Ebay bidders have hit the road! Maybe I should be looking to sell up and start again when the prices soften.

The 1852 sold for £480, the 1853 sold for £580 excl. prem. The problem I had was that so many pieces just weren't good enough. Many were cleaned or dipped and inevitably overgraded. I had a list of 300 which I looked at and that rapidly dropped to two dozen which I considered good enough to bid on. Of these, the vast majority opened at way above book price. I ended up with only 4 lots and only bid on 8 in total despite the fact I was prepared to exceed book price to some extent.

I can't get the 1751 obverse past gVF because the shoulder looks to have some wear apart from the laurel, although the reverse makes EF. The trouble is you can never tell how well it is struck without seeing it in the hand. The dump I'd give good fine/fine. There is still some laurel detail there and the reverses can be very poorly struck. Die infilling is a curse until you get to the Soho period.

Difficult to identify, it appears to have lost all detail.

A trial halfpenny for Peck 1309 with much filled in detail and recutting to both the legend and other features such as the trident and olive branch, both of which are double cut. SOHO is very weak and had not been reinforced at this point. The obverse is as found on a normal P1309. It shows the same type of filled die characteristics described in the 1807/6 halfpenny elsewhere in this section. Additionally it is in copper as opposed to bronzed copper and is struck on a thicker than normal flan of 2.8mm instead of 2.5mm. Weight 12.88 grams. Purchased at London Coins auction 4/6/06 lot 1591.

I suppose the next question is -"Does anyone have one of these with the E the correct way round?"

Auction catalogues

I've just found two other pictured examples and they also have a reversed E, so I guess this must be common or even normal.

If you think this is bad, the Americans have a TV channel called "Shop at Home TV" which is a home shopping channel that devotes a portion of its schedule to selling coins. If you click coins at the bottom of this page you'll see what I'm talking about if you have even the slightest knowledge of US coins. If they are going to start slabbing MS70s I suspect it will all end in tears. What are the chances of it toning at some time in the not too distant future. I also wonder what happens when the first strike is a cockup? Are all first strikes to be given MS70 because everything following that is from used dies and therefore less than perfect, however minor the imperfections?

Howl. I hate the term VF or whatever for issue. The concept that a particular issue's grade is increased (and it invariably is increased) primarily as a result of it's scarcity or age eludes me. It's just an excuse for dealers to charge more and collectors to view their coins through rose tinted spectacles. I have a circulated 1967 penny which I would like to ascribe as being dire for issue, most being hoarded straight from the bag .

Surely North appeared in 1975, Rob? Anthony Wilson at York Coins normally shows tickets if a coin has an interesting provenance. If there is nothing matching on the website (I haven't checked in detail) he may respond to an email. They are certainly quite unusual being rectangular. Otherwise I think I remember seeing a book with coin tickets in it but 'fraid I can't remember the details. Doh! After a search I realise it was that very article I was thinking of - sorry! Sorry Richard, 1975 not 1991. I was on autopilot and just copied the date out (3rd ed.) without thinking. I picked up a couple of lots at St. James' no.4, lots 220 H6 1/2ds & 271 H7 pennies and a H8 1/2d. Both lots had the same style of ticket and each coin had two as per the picture. There were a few other lots with these tickets too which I didn't bid on. Usually, general sales are an excuse for dealers to offload the stuff they can't sell so I wondered if anyone had picked up anything from a dealer with the same style.

Can anyone on the forum put a name to the previous owner of the coin tickets pictured below. Dimensions are about 39 x 15mm and they are approximately the thickness of 2 present day coin tickets. Two tickets were written per coin giving the details as shown. They must have been written post 1991 as North wasn't published until then. They don't appear to match anything in Eaglen, Mitchell and Pagan written in 2001. Thanks.

Here's a fairly good resemblance. The ties are positioned correctly for your coin, the two curls are higher than the forelock, there appears to be a trace of an E under the bust on yours and the spacing of the legend relative to the bust is quite a good fit. This is a second bust S3609. Apologies for the dire grade of the coin shown but I don't have a good example of this bust

Struggling here. The hair curls suggest an Edinburgh bust but you can't see whether there is an E or E* below the bust. The position of the bun relative to the legend suggests a sixpence. What diameter is it?

They were a suggested design by Joseph Moore and made in either 1844 or 1848 to replace the heavy coinage then in circulation. According to Peck, the inner part was supposed to be in silver to compensate for the small intrinsic copper value but those produced in the greatest numbers had a copper outer ring and an inner part made of approximately 60% zinc / 40% nickel according to Freeman who analysed the metal composition of many coins. They were never adopted and are quite common. You can pick up a good one on eBay for a few pounds. There are two varieties with this metal with the die axis upright and inverted. i.e If you turn the coin over, the other side may be of the same orientation or opposite and the inverted type is considered by Freeman to be slightly rarer. There is a variety with PENNY reading PENNEY and this is rare. The references are Peck 2092, Freeman 802 and 802A for the inverted die axis. It should look as the attached picture.