Rob

It is the rim metal covering the legend that gave me the response above. It may well have been both processes to clean off any surface marks from cooked material in the mould (if cast), with force applied (?) to produce the inner ring. I'm struggling to reconcile the ring lip with a linear circle, as it would have to impinge on the legend too as seen. Only the person responsible for it knows the truth.

If you consider what a flan is, there is an underlying crystalline structure based on the metal in question. At the atomic level, the atoms are connected by well defined structural links via shared outer electron pairs. In a perfect piece of metal with no inclusions, this would be consistent across the entire surface. However, at the next level up, the surface is disrupted by metal flow when struck leaving small sub-micron cracks. A crack is a crack and therefore will allow a greater surface area to be exposed to any reactant. One thing I have noticed with seriously corroded coins at the date for example is a 'moat' around the digit where the metal has been more rapidly removed than one might otherwise expect. I acquired and sold one 20 years ago, but can't find the image. This I would explain by the cracks allowing the reactant to penetrate the metal and so lead to increased metal loss at these points. To compare with toning, which is only another form of altered metal surface, not involving metal loss, you regularly see more toning around the relief detail. Again, I would put this down to the stress cracks allowing greater reactivity with the atmosphere. eg. see below. It is posted elsewhere, so apologies, but does demonstrate my theory very well. If metal is going to react, it doesn't matter much whether the fluid is a liquid or a gas, as both will cause some effect if chemically possible, just the rate and effect will vary.

The visible lettering is too crude and close to the rim IMO. It looks more like an abused attempt at a cast copy to me. Any attempts at acid cleaning will thin the letters and reduce dimensions on all 3 axes if there is total immersion. The weight of a cast would obviously depend on the amount of metal poured into the mould, so I think not relevant in this instance.

Because they know no better and want to believe what they see. Unfortunately, knowledge requires some input from the prospective purchaser in the form of reading up the subject before buying. To me and you it is simple, but that's because we are interested in the subject matter. For the uninitiated just randomly looking for things that appeal visually, it's not a great step to hit the buy button. Sad but true. Ebay can't police the content sufficiently to make a difference, so once again, it relies on the moral compass of the seller. There should be a useful statistic in there somewhere for a number for Mr. Average's honesty coefficient, not to mention the gullibility coefficient of the typical buyer.

Have to confess that I was only interested in a couple of milled patterns, so wasn't paying much attention other than to note they were expensive. However, I did get both Martlet/CLH 1550 shillings though (lots 13 & 14) at some cost. Both typical Ed.VI dogs in terms of quality, but happy with the pair.

In the case of written text, I suspect it may have been underneath a piece of blotting paper or at least something as adsorbant as bog-roll. That was the only way I could rationalise my 1773 halfpenny on a spread flan with Basing House plus some indecipherables written in the hand of H Webb. The above could equally be due to someone making a poster. Anything written or pressed onto newsprint with excess ink is likely to pass through quite easily given the paper quality.

Worse still, looking back, it appears I also posted the Truro and B a year ago too. I claim mitiga...... Actually, I had just started to dig into, photograph and update the collection database which hasn't seen anything new for the past 12 months despite a few dozen acquisitions since then. Must do better.

Well spotted Mr G. Maybe my kids weren't so silly to suggest I sign up for the Biobank Alzheimers Accelerator Project after all. TBH, I'm not sure it needs to happen quicker anyway, but hey-ho. I had completely forgotten about that, but claim mitigating circumstances as I had just driven to the other end of the country through the night to look after the grandkids in Plymouth due to a family bereavement on the other side and not bothered going to bed afterwards. Hopefully get some sleep tonight when I can switch off.

Sorted then. Well done. Those who don't like keeping reference books/records, please note.

Maybe, I don't know. That's why I said perhas someone else has the books to check for references and values. I see few Scottish coins apart from the early pennies, or the much more common milled bits.

It looks Scottish, but my books are at home and I'm not, so someone else has to chip in with a reference number/value.

A picture tells a thousand words. Image limit size is 500k per post, so if exceeded, leave the thread and rejoin with the next 500k.

We meet on the first Tuesday of every month starting at 7:30 in the Nursey Inn on Green Lane in Heaton Norris. Below is the text outlined in our 2025 chairman's report which gives full details. South Manchester Numismatic Society (SMNS) Chairman’s Report to 2026 BANS Our AGM was held in June 2025 at our long-standing venue, the Nursery Inn, Heaton Norris, Stockport, SK6 4NL. 7 members attended and 2 apologies were accepted. In addition to the normal agenda, discussions moved on to topics which had been submitted by members as AOB. As a result of these conversations the following was agreed. It was decided that our subscription to Zoom should be cancelled, although the option to renew remains under consideration. We also reduced our annual subscription to £5. It was decided to change our meeting start time to 7.30 from 8.00 pm and to reduce the number of meetings to the level of most BANS societies at once a month. One of our members, Roy Williams, volunteered to submit pieces for publication in the Societies section of Coin News. He has been doing an excellent job in promoting SMNS. Since the AGM the average attendance has been eight across seven meetings which has been boosted by the recent pleasing acceptance of four new members. Two of us, Denis Martin and Paul Greenlees, have given presentations. The Exhibition Evening and the Colin Cooke trophy was won by David Holt for his display of Henry VIII posthumous coinage. At the latest meeting chairman Denis spoke an appreciation and presented Peter Crummett with a gift to celebrate his 90th birthday. It was decided to make Peter an Honorary Member following his over 65 years of support. Before the 2026 AGM in June we have a quiz and a talk from Peter to which we can look forward. In writing this Charman’s report I am pleased to announce that 2025/6 has been a most successful one. Dr Denis M Martin ( Chairman) There is a good range of knowledge in the club, with quite a few specialist fields. Early medieval, Tudor & Stuart, Greek and Roman and some Byzantine, Farthings, Shillings, Modern, Tokens misc. Foreign is probably the least represented unless covered by other fields. We are a tolerant lot that appreciate you can't know everything, so any additional knowledge is welcome. Online access to the meeting was used so that Garry Oddie and others could 'attend', but that obviously went tits up when he died. He joined most meetings and often gave a talk.

Drop him a line. Better still, come up to the next SMNS meeting as he will be giving the talk, so definitely there. You can then speak face to face over some Hyde's beer in the pub where we meet. His knowledge on all things Edwardian (Plantagenet) is considerable, but is always willing to learn. Happy to put you up if a bed is needed.

I called Denis last night to disturb his break and he could only offer the following from memory. I think he misunderstood the question - but it was near the end of the evening. His reply as follows. 3e Northern mints. York (Royal), York (Episcopal), Newcastle, Durham. In my opinion not much to choose between them for relative rarity. York most common , then Newcastle and Durham about the same. 9b. Relatively common. Exeter, Chester and Kingston upon Hull the less common ones. Newcastle in early class 10 are very common even the 10X mules between class 9 and 10 which for other mints are rarer. Newcastle stops minting early in 10ab. I know of no data to confirm my thoughts or otherwise since data for amounts of silver coined is only available for London and Canterbury. All other rarity values are empirical. So to answer your question with my thoughts. It looks like the earlier pieces were lower mintage, but circulated less if typically found in higher grades. If the Newcastle 10s are more common, how does that tie in with larger production and troop movements given we did spend a lot of time fighting the Scots at this time. Sorry, I have too much to do, to do the spadework here. Just a thought.

Assuming the dimensions are correct for diameter and thickness, it looks like a machine shop job, with part of the rim turned down and the milling added. A curiosity, but no value. From the image, it looks slightly larger diameter, in which case the outer ring has been added, which ought to be a little heavier than usual. If you have accurate scales, compare its weight to another normal penny.

The problem is the banks no longer take them for exchange, so if impaired in any way, their value has actually reduced to the scrap cupro-nickel price. As with many commemoratives, they were hoarded, so there is no point in getting a worn one if you want it in decent grade. If I can get £3 for a really nice one, I'm happy. Most go in the rummage bin, or the big smelter in the sky.

Technically yes, but nothing out the ordinary. If a die is filled with grease (because they are stored that way before use to stop oxidation), then it won't compress when striking coins leading to weak or missing detail. This happens frequently as they use a lot of dies. If the flan is slightly thinner at one point, then it likely means it has been cut from the edge of a sheet, which depending on the amount of metal left for the last sheet say in the batch, could simply run out of metal to use. The sheets for making flans will be squeezed between 2 rollers to get the right thickness, which eventually must result in insufficient metal to fill the gap. It has curiosity value for many, but is a feature that's regularly seen. Someone might pay you a pound or two for it plus postage. For added zeros, put it on ebay and say the decimal point wasn't struck up. I'm sure someone will fall for it.

Or to put it another way. Face value + (£1/ebay price).

It will either be the dies blocked with grease, or more likely given the weakness to both sides, a weak strike or a non-uniform/standard thickness flan. Weight?

A pound, and better spent than hoarded given its condition. I assume it is genuine and not a copy?

Plenty, but I don't want to take over the thread and quite a few are shown elsewhere. I have approx 2 dozen in the collection with different reasons for the various errors as made.

Hi Shelly. Sorry, but no large value. It is a result of a die beginning to break up shortly before it dies. Given enough time, every die would show this feature (or something else related to the wear process) as it is due to a chip breaking off, which leaves a depression in the die surface where it shouldn't be and results in a raised lump. You might get something on ebay for it, but don't plan for a night out on the proceeds! List it for more than the cost of a second class letter stamp plus 5p and you will have a profit, as there is a collector for everything. In numismatic terms it is called a cud. FYI, another die fault arising from their destruction includes cracking prior to complete failure (leaving a raised irregular line or lines). The pictures help to explain what I mean. The second also shows a depression in the reverse field due to the flan having a fault too - usually due to bad metal mixing or a trapped air pocket. Raised will be on the die and recessed (incuse) due to the flan. Faults have many varieties and can make an interesting collection in their own right. If you are interested and want to pursue something along these lines, ask questions and search through past threads. It is fun (honestly). Edited to add that the weakness in REX on the obverse is likely due to the compromised integrity of the reverse die, as the die axis is inverted and so follows the line of the reverse flaw. Weak or missing letters is another error rabbit hole to look into.

'Normal for Berwick'?

Buy some! I will only be interested in any that correlate to troop movements which ties in specific issues of coins.