Stechlin

Well at last a microscope picture of the strange 5.

Now here is the second picture, showing the whole date. Chris catalogue mentions variations of the 1850 Farthing, that was the reason, to have a closer look to my coin.

Hi This question should be a case for Scottishmoney, because the only similar coin I found in the web and elsewhere was a picture on his website. http://www.geocities.com/scottishmoney/coins/charlesi.html But its only similar, for example in the obverse legend, here starting with CAR instead of CRD. So is this a scottish Charles I Two Pence coin or something different? The coin has a diameter of 16 mm and weights 13,1 grain (0,85 gramm). As always, I`m grateful for every answer. Holger

Hi What do you think of that? Two experiences I made as a German collector of British coins: First one: I was interested in an 1847 Penny (in that stage no matter if it is a far colon or a near colon variety) because the only one I own, is in only “Poor†condition. In my example of Chris CC GB (to be true, from 2007), this coin is valued (independent of far colon or near colon): F: 5, VF 18, EF 45, Unc/BU 100/220. As far as I can see meanwhile nearly all the Pennies from the 1840ies are quite difficult to get, with the exception of the 1841 Penny (with no colon after REG). For some dates of those Pennies you will fail in finding any offers at ebay at all worldwide for months. So I was very glad having found an 1847 Penny, although this one I would grade only somewhere in between poor and fine. But as a matter of fact (and being drunk, I’m afraid) I made a bit of 57 GBP for that Penny, just because it was better than mine. But I was outbid, this stupid Penny was sold for 58 GBP! Take a look: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...W:IT&ih=015 A few days later, another 1847 Penny was offered and I bought this one for 28,05 € (in words: Euro) from a German seller. Not a really good one, but obviously better than the one I failed to get in the auction before. Look at: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...N:IT&ih=006 Second one: I sold an 1871 Penny at ebay a few months ago, I would have graded that one as “Nearly Fineâ€. It was bought from a UK bidder for about 20 GBP. Having received my coin, he offered that in ebay.uk (using my picture!) immediately again and it was sold for about 40 GBP (If I’m remembering that right, this bid was to low for his reserve). So, my questions in two parts: 1) The first one to Chris and to the collectors of 1 Penny coins from the 1840ies. Do you think, my impression is right, that the prices for Pennies being strucked in the 1840ies have risen quite heavily in the last 2 or 3 years (in general). 2) The second one (in fact more questions) especially to potential UK bidders, who think about bidding for coins from a German (outside UK) seller: When you are checking ebay (or other sources) as a potential UK bidder: Do you search only in offers from UK sellers or do you search including offers in the EU or worldwide? This question is not really directed to the specialists (Rob, Historic Coinage, Scottishmoney, Geordie, just examples), but more to all the others – non “professionalsâ€. If you find a coin you are interested in (this question directed to the “professionals†too) from a German seller, does the location of the seller (and of course the coin) has any influence in your bid? Do you perhaps distrust (perhaps only a little bit) in a) German sellers or other sellers outside the UK in general – any bad experiences -? or just do you distrust the German Post or others? Influence of how many positive feedbacks this German (or any other outside UK) seller has? I have bought my British coins from all over the world (of course most of all inside the UK) and never had a problem at all. As a German collector of British coins (especially Pennies), every true answer to my questions would be very helpful and I will not argue, if those answers are not politically correct, be sure. See you soon Holger P.S. At the moment I’m searching for a QV Sovereign with a young head obverse and a shield on the reverse in a good condition (in that case I don’t care about the date and the mint location). Lots of offers worldwide, but I will wait for an offer of a German seller. Clever, isn’t it!?

Looks like I've missed to add the picture of my 1849 Penny.

Hi! Well, as always highly interesting answers, thanks a lot once again. 1) There is nothing more to say about the development of prices in 1840ies Pennies. “They have skyrocketed“as Bob said so nice. 2) Checking ebay offers outside the UK: Yes, I expected that most of the UK collectors don’t look for offers from abroad. I’m sure, a lot of collectors don’t even think about it. I think that Chris has listed the most important reasons for that behaviour. But of course, the other main - more rational - reason is that no interesting offers are expected from outside the UK, what is an error in my opinion (see later on). Nice idea, scottishmoney, to offer my coins as a Helgoland seller, haha. To be true, I tried to use ebay.uk to offer my coins (not more than 10 up to date), but unfortunately ebay is not as stupid as I thought. Ebay recognized my location in Germany (not Helgoland), and my offers could not be found in ebay.uk, until you use the “EU-Offers†or “worldwide†in the search program. And how can I fake ebay, I’m living in Helgoland – or at least the coin is living there-? – I will do, if I can! But: You are wrong! 2 examples: The first one I can’t prove: I bought my example of an 1849 Penny (the other one I have can only be identified under a microscope picture) about 3 or 4 months ago from an Australian! seller. Unfortunately, I haven’t noticed the price and I’m unable to restore the auction at ebay, but I’m quite sure, I paid 110 AUD, what means about 54 £. In this time, I made only 2 higher successfully bids than that one, and I remember those exactly (one of the unsuccessfully bids was the one for the fore mentioned 1847 Penny). What I do remember, that I was really astonished, to get the coin for a price far underneath 100 €. For the condition of that penny look at the picture (only the obverse, the reverse is at a similar condition). Judge for yourself, if you think I have paid too much. The second one – not that spectacular – is easy to prove. I bought that 1860 Penny for 2,50 € tonight http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...N:IT&ih=016 ( if that link doesn’t work, look at the article number: 260242498312 ). I don’t know the variety, because the scan is too bad and I’m not an expert in the Victorian bronze coinage, especially not in all the varieties of the 1860 and 1861 Pennies (although I started as a bronze coinage Penny date runner collector and I own a few 1860 and 1861 Pennies. I will check them in my next life). But whatever it is, it would have found a UK bidder for more than 2,50 €, if it has been listed there, right? P.S. 1: To Chris: I’ve started to read “England’s Striking History†tonight. What a great book!!! I will write a statement to that one in the right forum. P.S. 2: To Colin: You made me a poor man tonight! I don’t have any money left to buy farthings from you! P.S. 3: To Gary B: Still alive? Without your helps I would never have been developed to a quite serious Victorian Penny Collector. To all potential German starters (and coming experts) in collecting British coins: Keep on this website, but don’t miss Garys: http://www.britt-coins.de/index.html (in Deutscher Sprache!!) P.S. 4: To scottishmoney (descent of William Wallace under cover, as I know meanwhile). “The pennies from that era are so temptation, they are big, beautiful and just ooze Britannia in all her glories. That is why they are becoming pricey. Early Victorian, spesh the Godless and Gothics are so inviting even to me, they are the loveliest of British coins. “ To say it with Meatloaf: “You took the words right out of my mouth†S.y.s. Holger

The most comprehensive book I have read on coin manufacturing is 'The art of coin making' a history of minting technology by Denis R Cooper, published by Spink & son, ISBN 0907 605 27 3. Copper variations are not very well recorded genrally and mint records very scarce to non existant for the Copper period. Most books like Bramahs and Pecks only record a few of the most well known variations. John Hi, John Thank you very much. I've started a few threads in this forum concerning special coins and I have been always very impressed by the quality of the answers, although I'm not really a beginner in collecting British coins (Victorian Pennies). And now I'm impressed once again. Not only the author, the title, the publisher and the ISBN, but also a personal statement to the market in general. And all this with a few words. Great! - I've checked the offers to the book, you've mentioned. To say it with Shakespeare: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy". There is an offer in ebay just at the right time , look to the next answer to my question. Holger

Hi I'm collecting Pennies, espacially Victorian Copper Pennies and meanwhile I own a lot of varieties. I would be very interested, how those Pennies were manufactured. I feel a bit stupid, looking for example for a 1854 Penny in the 4 over 3 variety not even knowing, what the reason was using such strange dies. What material were the dies from? How many coins could be strucked with one die, before it has to be used a new one? How did the machines look, which screwed the dies on the blanks. How did the dies look (I once saw a picture of a few dies, as far as I know, there are a few shown in the BM)? Questions like this. I think that would be a nice idea for another Rotographic book. But until such a book is written, perhaps somebody can give me a hint for already existing literature to that subject. - I would prefer little text, but a lot of pictures, I'm a German reader - Interesting too would be similar literature concerning the hammered coinage. Thanks in advance. Holger

Hi Even at the risk of boring somebody, many thanks for the last answers to my questions, especially for those with the historical backgrounds. As a schoolboy I was never interested in history. Now I am, although - as some Germans would say - my interest concerns the wrong country, haha. I'm a Penny collector and numismatically I love the Victorian Copper Pennies. Historically I'm very impressed of Elizabeth I (and, to be true, of Elisabeth II), and I think, I will start another collection with this theme (E.I.) as far as I can afford this. But now to my question: As always, I did my very best to check the coin as far as possible, before I'm asking the specialists in this forum. But this time I'm once again quite helpless. Main problem: The coin is worn. I think the obverse (reverse?) picture could show an irish harp with a crown above. The legend on this side of the coin is hard to read. I have the idea, a fragment could be read as a "VNITA" (- Unita - from 6.00 clock to 9.00 clock). The legend on the reverse (obverse?) is better: IACOBUS D G ANG SCOT ... HIB? REX. There is a clear mintmark, but I did not try to find out, which one, not even knowing where this coin comes from. At last: It's obviously a silver coin, the diameter is about 20 to 21 cm, the weight is 23,1 grain (1,50 gramm). As always, .. grateful .... Holger

Thanks a lot, great answer! But what do you mean with "S-6514"? Spink? I own the Spink from 2006, but there are only 4710 numbers. Holger

Not 20 to 21 cm, but 20 to 21 mm. Otherwise even I would have recognized this one as a forgery.

As usual "the other side of the coin"

Great answer, thank you. I’m afraid meanwhile I owe a few pints here for you and others.

Unfortunately I posted the reverse of the coin first. Here is the obverse picture.

I don’t have any idea, what penny that is. The only things, I could work out: It’s a penny of the short cross coinage, the obverse legend is HENRICUS REX and the coin was minted in London (LUND). Not very difficult, I know, but this is the end of my wisdom. I recognized that the sceptre is quite vertical and the bust of the ruler has an interesting shaped beard. I can’t identify the moneyer, seems to start with a “B†or a “Râ€. So once again I would be grateful for every hint. Holger

Hi Geordie, Thanks a lot, I'm very grateful. For me as a starter its makes a big difference, not to know, what class a penny is or even not to know, what ruler! What would you think about Spink 1351? Regular S, cross pattee and, as far as I can see (without experience at all), there are only two curls per side. But I'm sure, you thought about that, and as a German I don't know, what is meant with the word "circular" in the Spink description. - Without your hint I would never thought about ABEL ON LUND as the moneyer, thanks especially for that

I need some help with a Shilling from the reign under Elisabeth I. As you can see in the added pictures, the obverse legend is as following: ELIZABETH:D:G:AN:FR:ET:HI:REGINA. The reverse legend - POSVI:DEU:ADIVTOREM MEU would fit to the Fifth Issue. But: I can't find this kind of the obverse legend (AN instead of ANG; FR instead of FRA(N); HI instead of HIB). So I need the help of the experts. The weight of the coin is 85,6 grain (5,55 gramm), the size fits perfectly to the Shilling-pictures in Spink and Coincraft. I think, it is a variety, thats just not listed in the forementioned catalogues. I'm greatful for every answer. Holger

Picture of the reverse.

Thanks a lot!! Yes, it seems to be a Shilling from the Second Issue. But what still irritates me is the not in Spink or Coincraft listed obverse legend. By the way: The drawn picture of the martlet in Coincraft seems to be wrong, because the martlet is looking to the right instead of looking to the left, as it is correctly shown in Spink. In Coincraft the reverse legend is described with POSUI DEU ADIUTOREM MEU with a modern “U†in “ADIUTOREMâ€. In fact the discussed coin has the old “V†instead of the modern “U†in “ADIVTOREMâ€. For the Fifth Issue it is described with the a “Vâ€. That is the reason I wrote, that the reverse legend would fit to the Fifth Issue. But I have some others Elisabeth shillings here from a friend, there is no modern “U†neither in “ADIVTOREM†nor in other words of the legends with U. So most probably another fault in the Coincraft description. I don’t know, but meanwhile I think, that there are no coins from that time with a modern “U†in the legends. Once again, thanks a lot and see you soon. Holger

Based on the hair profile it is bust 3C (S2555) Great!! I think, you are right! Thanks

Yes! Thank You

Now the reverse of the coin:

Actually I'm a collector of Pennies from 1797 to 1967, but I own a few silver pennies. I tried to identify one of them tonight. I think, I'm close to the answer, but I'm not sure. As far as I can see, it's a Henry III longcross Penny, and I think it should be Class Va or Vb. Referring to Spink (Numbers 1367 and 1368) the differences between those two is, that the Class Vb Penny has a narrower face, a wedge tailed R (instead of a Ball-tailed R) and round eyes. Well, in lack of comparison I can`t say, whether the face is narrower or not, I don't have any idea, what a wedge-tail R or a Ball-tailed R is and: round eyes instead of what? - I posted two pictures of the obverse of that coin. Perhaps you will laugh, when you see, how I try to identify my coin. But as a amateur in that discipline, it is helpfull. - Perhaps somebody can help me. Holger

I think, you are right, look at my reply to Tom. By the way: I like your motto. Do you know that link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum ?

Thank you very much for the link. I thought, that now it should be possible to identify the coin exactely, but this is not the case. I'm afraid, Geordie is right, that it can' t be VLC 77. I think VLC 161 (on page 9) and VLC 304 (on page 13) are quite similar. I think, I give up. "What fun it is collecting hammered". Yes, I think, one has to be very patient person!