argentumandcoins

Lucky Bevpub indeed.... private listings always leave me slightly suspicious however! What was it, penny or shilling?

Mike, BNTA membership is no more a guarantee of accurate grading than using a benchmark set of coins that were graded by US grading firms, oops that is part of CGS' benchmark set! Coins sell for money and where there is money there is greed. The higher the grade the higher the price therefore SOME dealers may inflate the grade! Personally I prefer to build relationships with customers and try to give the customer a good coin at a good price. A happy customer is a returning customer and that is what all dealers should aim for. I know you will latch onto the comments above and start spouting "that's why you should buy slabbed coins, because they are already graded" but to be honest it is getting rather monotinous. Bill gives good honest answers and is open to both sides of the argument, you on the other hand come across as having some sort of hidden CGS agenda. We all have a choice as to how we buy and store our coins. Most people prefer raw coins and actually like to learn about grading as they go along, others want to be spoon fed grades. I sincerely hope for your sake that CGS does not go belly up as you will then be left with US TPG's and you are lucky if they can get the date/denomination correct never mind the grade!

Which auction house did you buy it from and roughly how recently? The only reason I ask is that there are forgeries of this coin on the market and unlikely to be spotted unless sold by a major house (UK auction house). Your picture is not exactly the best for making an assessment on authenticity. If genuine, very scarce and highly saleable. The market for high grade rare coins is bouyant in the UK and it should comfortably find a new home whilst showing you a decent return on your investment. If you wish to sell you should probably go to Spink, DNW, St James's or Baldwins and you would be able to secure a 0% commission on a coin of that value.

Peter, I have spent hours upon hours on that bloody platform and I am still waiting for it to happen. My wife is a Penrith lass however

Bob, as an American, how do you compare the relative qualities of NGC and CGS ? Do you have experience of both ? Michael, I have a lot of NGC graded coins (and some PCGS and ANAC's), and I think NGC does a good job on U.S. Coins. Coins of Great Britain are another matter, since the grading is not based on a UK system of grading...in fact I am not sure what they use as a grading guide for UK coins. On the other hand, I think CGS does a good job, as far as I have seen, on British coins. The real comparison of coin grading for CGS would be how do they grade U.S. Coins. Would they make the same mistakes on U.S. coins that NGC and others make on UK coins? I don't know, as I have never seen a U. S. Coin graded thus far, by CGS. That would be a good one to check out. What it all boils down to with the two grading systems is, we are not comparing apples to apples...instead apples to oranges!.... Hello Bob, CGS actually recommend that Coins from North America (Canada & USA) be graded by US grading companies as the results are more acceptable to North American collectors. I have just checked the CGS site and it shows that there are five collectors who own 9 CGS Graded USA Coins. I had a quick look and found the following: UIN 0016026 Coin Type 1DSE.USAM.2008.02 Origin United States Description 1 Dollar Silver Eagle 2008 Variety W. Proof Standard References CGS variety 02 Provenance Grade UNC 98 Population Level 1 out of 1 Finest Known I did ask CGS recently had they ever graded a coin at UNC100 and the answer was no - not even proof that had come straight out of a mint's capsule. Very critical grading but I feel consistent. As an aside, I believe all other (than CGS) graders use the Sheldon Scale (developed in North America) which goes from 01 to 70 whereas CGS uses the decimal scale of 01 to 100. Steve Lockett has already publicly stated that NO COIN will ever attain a 100 score because if a better example turned up how could you score it? Seems a bit double Dutch to me, it either scores 100 or it doesn't (ie it is flawless or it isn't)? As 100 represents perfection, and it is impossible to improve on perfection, surely he (Steve Lockett) is implying that a sub perfection coin might be mistakenly graded at 100. That is certainly one way of viewing it. I think the major problem is the human factor. If it were 2 machines examining the coins against a benchmark set, that would guarantee uniformity in grading. 2 humans always leaves a margin of error and you could almost argue you have doubled the margin rather than halved it! I can see why slabs would appeal to some people and I will not bash them for their tastes but I always tell my customers to buy what they like and treat it as a hobby that may give them a financial yield long term. It infuriates me to read the splurge on Guineas ebay listings about "my investment coins" and that only mirrors the dross that CGS/LC were churning out last year and the year before about "investment collections". Investors lead to bubbles and bubbles ALWAYS burst! People should be in the hobby for pleasure (Bill certainly falls into this bracket) rather than gain, strange comment coming from a dealer I know!

Bob, as an American, how do you compare the relative qualities of NGC and CGS ? Do you have experience of both ? Michael, I have a lot of NGC graded coins (and some PCGS and ANAC's), and I think NGC does a good job on U.S. Coins. Coins of Great Britain are another matter, since the grading is not based on a UK system of grading...in fact I am not sure what they use as a grading guide for UK coins. On the other hand, I think CGS does a good job, as far as I have seen, on British coins. The real comparison of coin grading for CGS would be how do they grade U.S. Coins. Would they make the same mistakes on U.S. coins that NGC and others make on UK coins? I don't know, as I have never seen a U. S. Coin graded thus far, by CGS. That would be a good one to check out. What it all boils down to with the two grading systems is, we are not comparing apples to apples...instead apples to oranges!.... Hello Bob, CGS actually recommend that Coins from North America (Canada & USA) be graded by US grading companies as the results are more acceptable to North American collectors. I have just checked the CGS site and it shows that there are five collectors who own 9 CGS Graded USA Coins. I had a quick look and found the following: UIN 0016026 Coin Type 1DSE.USAM.2008.02 Origin United States Description 1 Dollar Silver Eagle 2008 Variety W. Proof Standard References CGS variety 02 Provenance Grade UNC 98 Population Level 1 out of 1 Finest Known I did ask CGS recently had they ever graded a coin at UNC100 and the answer was no - not even proof that had come straight out of a mint's capsule. Very critical grading but I feel consistent. As an aside, I believe all other (than CGS) graders use the Sheldon Scale (developed in North America) which goes from 01 to 70 whereas CGS uses the decimal scale of 01 to 100. Steve Lockett has already publicly stated that NO COIN will ever attain a 100 score because if a better example turned up how could you score it? Seems a bit double Dutch to me, it either scores 100 or it doesn't (ie it is flawless or it isn't)?

I paid £100 for the only copy I could find last year!

I know that your camera skills are somewhat limited VS but before and after pics would be appreciated? If you need a hand or 2 with the shots I am sure there would be a couple of willing volunteers on here :D

Hi Colin, I am too old and too fat myself. Perhaps it was because I was given chances by others when running my own (and other peoples) businesses that I try and do the same for others, even in rough economic times. If we were all the same the world would be a dull place. As to the value of a coin collection - therein lies one of the reasons I use CGS. I believe my collection has a value but I also believed that the combined collection of my father's stamps and my own stamp collection (accumulated in a total of 120 years) were worth a considerable sum. I know what we spent on stamps while we collected them and having spent over £10,000 with one dealer in the 1980's I approached that same dealer to offer them the stamps. Now I am not naive enough to think I would get anywhere near catalogue value but when I was offered just over £6,400 I was flabbergasted! That set me thinking about coins and how they were valued...... All the best Bill I think your main problem there Bill is that stamps are a rapidly depreciating market at the moment and if coins were to go the same way no collections (slabbed or raw) would be worth anywhere near what they are now?

But how many Churchill Crowns, E2 & G6 farthings, to name but a few, could be added to the peanuts list? With Bill's couple of thousand coins, and the E2 pre and post decimal coinage, plus my 10 slabs and VS's mint-flavoured NEF '35 Crown...what was that population report again? Anyway, where's MY '67 penny, then? CGS better grade some more 1967 pennies then if they are going to give them away to all registered collectors with CGS graded coins on the web site (of which there are currently 183). I have heard that over 500 people have registered to the site who have not logged or admitted to having CGS graded coins. Interestingly only 10,632 of the CGS coins have been registered as being 'owned' by the 183 collectors. I wonder where the other 15,000 are? The only time I have known CGS 'give' coins away in slabs was at a Dublin Coin fair when they had encapsulated (but not graded nor added to the 'population' report) Irish Commemorative two euro coins in conjunction with the organisers. These were handed out when people bought tickets to attend the event. I have tried to answer this point elsewhere in this forum but you do make a good point about 'how much dross (my word, peanuts your word)' is included in the 25,000 coins graded. I have no interest in decimal UK coins nor do I collect anything before 1816 - yet these appear on the CGS site. Should I reject the service because it contains stuff I am not interested in? I have submitted everything from 'common or garden' through to extremely rare coins to CGS because I want my collection to be housed in CGS slabs and have been independently graded by them. So was it worth my submitting my Elizabeth II sixpences - certainly not in terms of financial reward. However, many were not UNC (although I thought they were) so I have been able to replace them with CGS UNC coins from private purchases. Unless a coin is scarce or rare I would prefer an UNC version of it - and many I bought as 'raw' and described as uncirculated from UK dealers and auction houses have been graded by CGS as EF, AU and in some cases as VF (with a number being rejected by CGS because of faults or cleaning). Many collectors are content with 'raw' coins. I and some other collectors are not. Most collectors like to acquire the best they can of a specific coin, whatever their interest. To ensure I know what my coins grade at I use CGS and I buy CGS graded coins that allow me to upgrade lesser graded ones. When I paid a ridiculous amount for a CGS UNC82 Churchill Crown it was to replace an UNC80 that I already had. I am more than happy with that purchase - in the same way I would be delighted to be offered a 1967 penny graded by CGS at UNC90 or higher to replace the UNC80 grade I have. However you wish to hold your collection - I wish you well. What I hope I have done is bring some balance to the CGS discussion. Whilst I am not noted for overgrading I feel I must make a valid point on behalf of all of the groups you mention here Bill. It is VERY easy for CGS to be uber-critical of submitted coins when they grade them as they are getting £11.99/shot regardless of whether it is an UNC 99 or a Poor or Good 5. The resultant label score does not matter a jot to them as they profit or lose no further. In relation to an earlier couple of posts by you on here; 1) If CGS staff work with LC why is the grading so far out on some LC auction items (overgraded that is)? Also why so many mis-identification issues on varieties (I know having had 2 extremely rare 1d's that were totally incorrectly identifed)? 2) Who owns the other 49% that is not held by LC holdings?

I wouldn't worry about it Stuart. I used to deal (and still dabble) in antique silver. I bought one for tarnished flatware and it was pretty useless at removing anything, other than the £10 from my wallet to buy it of course! I've so very nearly bought a couple of books on the subject! I quite often get my head into the Clevedon Salerooms, and I see all this lovely GIII/WIV silver going out, just wishing I knew enough to buy some without throwing my money away. WIV is the better bet, short reign for the mark collectors and usually better quality. Flatware is a non-starter unless you can find Paul Storr (VERY VERY collectable) workshop pieces. You have my number if you need advice (25p connection charge and £1.50/min after that as it doubles as my wifes chatline ).

Leaving aside CGS, I have 2 1689 halfcrowns on my website, both slabbed by NGC and both identified as incorrect ESC varieties. One even has the wrong shield type for the ESC number it is supposed to be. Basic errors in my opinion and if they can't get the basics right what else can they get wrong?

I wouldn't worry about it Stuart. I used to deal (and still dabble) in antique silver. I bought one for tarnished flatware and it was pretty useless at removing anything, other than the £10 from my wallet to buy it of course!

Having seen examples of their grading I would guess VF55 or something similar. They seem to be excessively harsh on coins and I mean EXCESSIVELY, but when you arte on £11.99 per coin and you get no bonus payment for the size of the grade you CAN be excessively harsh! I just wish that they would apply the same standard of grading to coins in LC auctions, but being cynical the higher the grade in their auctions the better for them?

I could value them for you but would have to have them in hand to do so. Unfortunately the Chinese were beaten to the Ancients forgeries by the Eastern Europeans and forgeries are rife in this area. Whereabouts are you in the country?

Ironically, this is one example where the TPG input is likely to have little weight. People who are looking and willing to spend serious amounts for letter by lighthouse halfpennies are rarely, if ever, not up to speed on the variety. The two halfpennies (actually I had one with an A by lighthouse - even rarer) so let us say three coins are in parlous condition. One had been immersed in water so long that it was literally flaking away - but not enough to stop seeing the letter and other detail. They are now in rigid holders and I believe will not deteriorate further. I bought an NGC graded 1962 letter C halfpenny that was graded as MS64RB (Unc at least one would think). CGS did not even remove it from the capsule but called me (which is when I made my first journey to their offices) to tell me they would reject it. When I met with them the coin was represented to grading (it looked lovely - even in a capsule!) and I was shown the coin through the capsule under a ten times magnifier to see the verdigris that someone had tried to remove with presumably a pin, then I was shown where the coin had been recoloured (I did not know you could do that to make a dull coin look UNC). On that point if anyone knows what can be used to 'return a bronze coin' to an UNC appearance I would appreciate the information as I am researching an article on 'coin preservation'. Bill, I have a book called "cleaning and preservation of coins and medals" by Sandford J Durst, ISBN 0-915262-03-7 It is an achedemic work and probably written with museum conservators in mind. If you cannot find a copy for sale I am more than happy to loan you my copy if it would help. John.

I nearly turned off the first documentary due to the antics of "the wet blanket"! On a separate note I was gutted when Channel 4 announced that it was axing Time Team. It has been a favourite of mine since episode 1

That's a slab I would pay good money to crack open....

ARGENTUMANDCOINS I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it: 1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF, VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast losses. 2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit. As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started collecting 20 years ago. 3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are keeping eye on their auctions. Mike, I will keep it simple. I speak from experience as a dealer (many on here have bought from me and will vouch for my grading skills) and as an independent auction house consultant/cataloguer. Leaving aside points 1 and 2 in your reply I will go straight to 3. London Coins set the auction estimates that the sheep will follow for their bidding, just as CGS set "prices" on coins they slab. It is very easy to massage prices when you control the guide book and the auction. That is a fact not an accusation. Why not keep an eye on Lockdales as well because Dan quite often has a lot of Steves' unsolds or old stock in his catalogues. I am a longstanding LC customer with a bidding number in the 200's and I have no axe to grind with the company at all but I do object to people trying to influence opinions with weak one-sided arguments, "transparency in the market" it is quite simple BUY THE COIN NOT THE SLAB!!! One thing is plain in all of this, there is obviously a concerted effort by yourself, Bill and Divemaster to trumpet the virtues of slabbing to the detriment of collecting and the exhaltation of investing.

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it? I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?" Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business. Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop. As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

Unless I happen to be the seller Scott, in which case it seems to sell for a loss

I emailed Heritage over a month ago and told them of the TPG error. No response from Heritage and the coin still up for auction, still what do I know, I'm just a GB dealer!

Thanks John, and thanks for the Scottish shillings you sent me, very pleased with them No problem. I will eventually get around to listing some more GVI shillings when I can free myself from accounts and pain in the posterior ebay idiots buyers scammers....

A decent strike of a usually weakly struck coin and in reasonable condition. Add onto that 2 determinred ebay bidders and hey presto! Spink is only a guide Paul and is quite often oceans out on either side.

I deal in foreign notes and can also give an auction estimate for the next PFK sale if they are interested. Obviously a live auction with live internet bidding (which PFK is) would give a better return than selling to a dealer. Drop me an email if they would like advice. If it is to be sold on behalf of a registered charity we would sell on a 0% commission basis for them.