argentumandcoins

This appears to be an 1846 over 4 groat in poor state. There are a plethora of overdates and re-cuts in this series. This is unlisted by either Rayner or Peter Davies. Closer magnification shows 6 over 5 over 4? or 6 over 5 only? Shame the coin is so worn. It's going as a 6 over 4 anyway and I'll let the buyer decide!

Pre Elizabeth II? I understood it was some point in the 19th Century that they changed this practice? The silver hyper-inflation was 1980-81 when the Bunker Hunt family in the States tried to corner the silver market (and failed). I vividly remember that (in Coin Monthly) the values listed for BU George VI florins went from £2 in one issue, to £12 the next time they featured florins. Of course, it didn't last. And then there's the discovery of large quantities of certain coins well after the issue : one issue of Anne shillings, 1697 late issue sixpences, Maxentius follis (dug up!), 1912H BU pennies ... Never having contacted the Mint I relied on information provided by Rayner and he states the practice altered in 1950, hence only EII mintages can be quoted with accuracy. Rayner may of course have been misinformed.

The obverse looks like it's from one of the "To Hanover" gaming tokens. I would guess that it was either a uniface or has been smoothed post production and then stamped as a love token. The flower stamp has then fractured the flan.

Rare is a term that should be quoted in terms of knowledge (ie speciallist knowledge in the field) or in reference to the accepted rarity in a published work, Freeman, Rayner et al. I totally agree that Rare, Very Rare, Unique etc etc are terms that usually mean nothing at all in terms of ebay sellers. I read an article in the antiques trade gazette some years ago. It was a tongue in cheek look at ebay and went something like; Scarce = 1st one I've seen this week Very Scarce = 1st one I've seen this month Rare = 1st one Ive seen for quite a few months Very Rare = I've never seen one before Extremely Rare = Neither has my wife

My wife is never off the bloody thing! Always telling me that somebody is doing their ironing or having a poo or some other pointless bit of drivel. Never been on it and have no intention of signing up. Like Peter, I have a phone, and have even on occasion been known to write a letter. Yes, a letter, with full words in it and everything! I beta go b4 sum1 takes a fence at wot I writ LOL

At this point it is probably worth putting some flesh on the bones of a real example. Recently I compiled a list of illustrated Exeter & Truro crowns in order to identify which dies were common or not and which examples were worth acquiring. There is a large variation in the numbers of particular die combinations. The Besly numbers are used for each die combination. There are 4 obverse dies and 31 reverses. Quick pointers are that A1 is the Truro, B2 is the 12 scroll reverse Exeter, C3-7 the undated Exeters, C8 the 1644 date divided by mark, C9-15 the 1644 left of mark, C16&17 Rose/Ex, D16&17 Tower/Ex, D18 Tower/Rose 1645, D19-31 1645 Tower mark. The numbers are for identifiably different examples. Not included are those in museums or specific references which identify the variety but without illustration or corroborative provenance. In the case of readily identifiable varieties the numbers below have considerable but unquantifiable scope for upwards revision. A1 102 B2 10 C3-21, C4-11, C5-7, C6-14, C7-8, C7a-4 (not recorded by Besly). Total 65 C8-12 C9-15, C10-2, C11-16, C12-5, C13-11, C14-18, C15-7. Total 76 C16-12, C17-4. Total 16 D16-8, D17-14. Total 22 D18-7. D19-7, D20-18, D21-16, D22-16, D23-7, D24-8, D25-5, D26-7, D27-7, D28 doesn't exist, D29-10, D30-9, D31-6. Total 116. As you can see, some die combinations are out and out rare, whilst some are in reality very common. It goes without saying that all would be described on ebay as rare, but with over 100 Truros and 1645 tower mark Exeters available to collectors this is clearly not the case. At the individual die combination level and at the other end of the scale is the C10. Cooper had a fairly dire example and was the only one recorded by Besly. The other is virtually as struck and was in the Rowley Butters collection sold at St. James's a couple of years ago - that's rare. The problem is that rare, scarce, common or whatever are used indiscriminately by buyers and sellers as a negotiating feature rather than being based on evidence. I would be interested to know who would have considered which types to be rare and which ones common based simply on the readily available info in references and from personal obvservation. What guesses would have been hazarded based on intuition? As most rarity attributions seem to be based on perception - honest answers only please. Not all Rob, there are 1 or 2 honest men left! Interesting report though. As you know, I specialise in and collect milled issues, where the existence of only 100 of a type would make it scarce/rare due to the fact that there would be a thousand or more collectors of that type. I suppose you hammered boys (no reference to drunkeness intended!!) focus more on one area of the range and stick to it i.e die varieties of C I shillings etc.

I may be entirely wrong Gary, but it looks post mint and looks like it was struck using a mint produced penny. The rim of the original penny shows up on your "brockage" and even shows a rim nick at 8 o'clock? It's difficult to see how this could have come from the mint when it is clearly struck without a collar on a larger heavier flan? As I say, I may be wrong.

On the football theme Derek I heard yesterday that Sunderland are trying to sign Frankie Dettori to replace Darren Bent. Apparently they want somebody up front that can give them a chance of winning a Derby!

Bought for a few dollars in the USA sold for 360GBP so a few schekles profit, but hell ebay don't half take their cut, 36 quid in all for sellers fees ebay seem to be wringing every last ounce of fun and penny out of the whole thing these days. P.s, it was a dealer who bought it Pss, i actually bought it in EF+ grade, but after seeing it didn't think so, hence i dropped the grade Ebay have just revoked my powerseller top rated status because 8 buyers in 3 months have left me 1 or 2 stars out of 5 for postage fees! I charge £1.10 for first class. My cost is £0.85 in materials and paypal fees plus my time plus a 20 mile round trip to the post office. I just had a delivery from an auction company who charged me £15 packing for an album and a bag thrown into a box with some brown paper on it. Postage was £22 on top of that!!!!! net result is ebay have stripped my final value selling fee discount, meaning, yes you've guessed it, more of my money for them....... BA****S Nice result on your penny though even with the ebay rip-offs

My little un is 14 months old and I find that baby wipes work a treat...... on his bum! Any mechanical coin cleaning is an absolute no go area. The wipe will be free of impurity (it should be anyway) but the coin surface will have microscopic abrasive particles on it. The act of "wiping" will leave the tell tale "hairlines" on the surface whether visible to the naked eye, or via magnification, they will be there.

Mintage figures were never taken as a given on any date pre Elizabeth II as they only reflect the number of coins issued in that year. The issue number could include coins dated a year either side of the actual date. As for the silver price I wouldn't worry about it. During the last silver hyper inflation of the 70's there were some dealers who were apparently shipping container loads of coins and antique silver to the smelters. I have heard tales of any and everything going in (gothic florins, Ed VII halfcrowns etc). There is such a massive amount remaining that I don't think availability levels will be hit. I visited a caller last week who was disposing of her deceased husbands estate and he had hoarded 2Kgs of lower grade silver (yes I'm selling in bulk) as well as 25 1986 and 1989 £2 coins, £'s of current decimal coinage, some Georgian Copper, the odd bit of Viccy silver, copper and bronze and heaps of mid-late 20th century stuff. This will no doubt be repeated tens thousands of times over across the country, meaning that there will still be oceans of lower grade in existence.

My brother in law was a prison warder and later an assistant governor before he had more than he could take. In his view half of the prisoners he encountered were doolally and should have been in the funny farm. We don't have funny farms any more Derek. It is now "care in the community" or more accurately "keep the loonies on the streets because most MP's live in affluent areas and won't come into contact with them so they don't care!!!"

1883 is probably the commonest of the Gothic Florins, so should be the best chance of obtaining a decent grade at the lowest price.

I think it used to work out at 2p per round for the 9mm pistol when I trained. 4p and a can of petrol solves the problem permanently! Or forget the petrol and just feed the crows!!

Richard is a friend of mine and I can safely say he is as honest as the day is long.

Got my first lot, no probs, thanks. Hmmmm, still waiting for the second lot though! Wonder where they are? I was referring to the Dick Turpin brigade on Ebay Gary, you're a website buyer so...... it "me no got my coins my friend" tough lady bumps mate, no insurance paid for no rip John off!!!! I'm sure I could work something out for a decent chap on the forum though

Visit the post office to be told 5 weeks later "me no got my coin(s) my friend. what you do about solve it for me?" 6 TW*TS now since mid December (only 1 in the UK), all of course selected standard airmail and all expect this mug to foot their losses, if indeed they are lost. It's almost enough to make you become a xenophobic mass murderer!!!!!

That's probably because dealers would offer a more realistic price. I find Fisons to be a lot cheaper when I want to buy crap!

Welcome back John. Thanks for the confirmation. I was using Spink 2011 and ESC but it was still difficult to determine which head type, now i'm only quoting the Spink 2011 here which states its 3906A it also says "uncertain to exist as normal coin or proof?" So now it exists apparently although no price is quoted for this type. So should this now go into unconfirmed varities lol I think you can forget what Spunk says about this coin Dave. You have to remember that they are not experts in the field of varieties and they are not producing a reference book, merely a price guide. It isn't too long since that they totally arsed up pictures for the 1897 high tide penny and I had quite a few punters that year telling me they had one because it was the same as the picture in Spunk. In their defence it is a massive undertaking to compile the yearly price guide, trying to keep on top of market trends and new discoveries. Peter Davies and before him Seaby/Rayner have identified this type and I think I would trust their tomes a good deal more!

I thought Spunk was a price guide? Using reference books (Davies and ESC) it is Davies number 910 obv 6 rev B and ESC 1332 (type A6)

You could try my wifes approach. She makes sure that I never have a brass tack in my bank account so it doesn't matter if someone hacks it or not

I think you sniggering little schoolboys will find that the correct anatomical name for the appendages to which you refer is... lady bumps!

Your house security(and valuables) are rather like a females virginity though. It just takes one prick to get in and they're gone forever.....

It is closer to the crown Dave, 2nd bust as I stated above! You need to buy a copy of Marsh if you're gonna start to play with sovs. You will find all of the identifiers that Spunk can't be bothered with in there.

It was a member of this forum........and I know who I got outbid as well but not suprisingly! Forgot you guys looked on the german ebay too! I know as well, as I have on a couple of other recent buns, but we'll keep our own counsel!!!