VickySilver

Amen! I was not favoring the 2012 edition and felt many of the milled values to be off. What was your impression of Victorian copper and silver?

BTW, the vast bulk of Heritage coins are photographed THROUGH the slab, although they do show coin in slab as well.

Wow, silly me thought that was a slide case! And it MUST be a proof! All for 9.99, what a steal. Thing is that it might actually be a bit better preserved than some, but can not really tell from picture and the price needs to drop.

It does look to be a "Satin Specimen" as I like to call this issue. Definately more detail struck up although as has been pointed out the finish of the coin is not that obvious. I was curious in my previous response if it was some sort of different issue in proof or ?, now answered. Nice piece, and I for one do like these.

Yikes, I tried to get on the CGS site and they sent me on a spin.....Hmmm, techno challenged! Still would like to see the '65. PS - My 1951 is suspect as VIP even though bought as such.

Ouch! Some of us like "Churchies" even if there are too many laying about...

Divemaster (and to return the topic back to crowns!) - you said you have a VIP ?1965? Have you a picture. BTW, the Churchill thread on PCGS foreign threads has a picture of the central devices of my satin "Churchy" toward the end...

The VIP record proofs of "non-standard" years are a bit more interesting, or can be. Not many left for me, so am a contender on occasion for the 19th C. copper and silver bits. I would not recommend playing any large premium for a VIP of a standard year - 1937, 1950, 1951, 1953, or even 1927. I have a rare pattern 1927 crown but is so similar to the final that there might not be much interest in it either but I do like it.... Still, was a shocking amount that the 1965 pattern "initialled" Churchill at some 3800 pounds went for - got blown out on that one... BTW, JeffHouston has posted a picture of Churchill from a Satin Specimen on the PCGS forum & rather nice!

I am wondering what an "ordinary" Satin proof/specimen would go for now? I did not feel the estimate bad, but surprised that interest buoyed it up so high. Hate to say it Gary, but I also was in the hunt but was brushed aside by the bidding as it headed toward 3k. My recall is that Satins were generally going when they came up for 1200 or so, and in a related vein, DNW sold THE ONLY 1937 matte proof crown that I am aware of in private hands (ex-Norweb) for 3.2 k just a couple of years ago...

Wow, NEW RECORCD FOR CHURCHILL CROWNS - 3300 pounds plus the juice!!!!

Well, no I won't be there and had to figure out what to do so left two bids by email...

Wow, do you trust them to have it up. I have bid successfully day of sale via internet but by recall a couple of times I was "skunked" by being unable to attach on satisfactorily and thus unable to bid...

Honestly Azda, you really have proved a clown of the first order. I NEVER SAID THERE WERE MORE COINS SLABBED THAN UNSLABBED.And I gave you real world numbers of coins, something your Royal Laziness has not been able to do. Now if you choose to be a bullock (to use your very words(, so be it. Just because you haven't a clue, you try to change the argument. Slabs are far more common than you seem to realize, something I have pointed out to you and also invited you to check several sites to give you an idea of the scope. I do not think they are the end-all and have had definate disagreements with some of the attributions and grading. I also do not like the space they consume and think they may not have a good place for circulated or most hammered bits, or common pieces. If you would recall, there was a question about slabbing matte set holders and it is not done to my knowledge. Also, as far as cost, occasionally the slabbers have sales, and I got one email recently from PCGS that they were slabbing "economy" coins for $10 plus shipping and insurance - not too bad. Mostly I have seen these slabs on higher valued coins but they are obviously trying to reach a larger audience and "pump" the volume.

No actually Azda, you are rather the cretin, and have NOT responded to my examples and tried to reword what I have said. I have said that slabs are becoming more and more dominant within the marketplace and are a force to be reckoned with. True it is, and bray if you like... As far as ridiculous arguments by you that have been gunned down regard the ability to take pictures through slabs and that somehow slabs will go away or that there are numerous labelling or attribution errors, remain just that., ridiculous arguments. 25 million coins have been slabbed by them, possibly nearly that many by NGC. Before you open your trap again, maybe you should look at the PCGS British coin census. Or maybe do something on your own for a change. I am not going to count how many coins are in slabs, nor was that my point so evidently you are stuck without significant arguments. Please bring something useful and interesting to the table besides the "bollocks" label. The matte specimens are individually slabbed by both the two listed companies, and I have seen all save one set of 1927s. I also might ask you to find unslabbed 1922 specimen pennies, unslabbed gold 1922 florins, unslabbed 1924 specimen proof sets, and same for the 1930 proof VIP half crown. Actually the examples are so numerous that I will leave it up to you and your "bollocks" arse to check it out for yourself since I have cited the examples.

Actually Azda, ALL of the 1927 and 1937 mattes are slabbed, and I used them as an example. I would not bother to slab a coin worth less than 300 pounds or so. Pictures ARE READILY taken through the Perspex , if you doubt this please check the Heritage archives. Here's another - check the Cheshire Collection coins (and I could name many many more). Let's see, we're they slabbed? Why yes they were. Point is slabbing is much more prevalent than many seem to believe. All good? Certainly not. Benefits? IMO yes.

Azda, go on over to the US for the next ANA Convention, and you will see exactly what I am talking about, and it is not just US coins. Not calling those who denigrate slabs these, but Do Do birds were once common, and became less so. LOL! And also, I just gave you and example of the 1927 matte proof coins. Or the 1937 matte proof coins - pray tell if you know (and I do) whether the vast majority are slabbed or not? Or maybe you should check out the Terner sale and tell me of where you have seen more unslabbed quality gold coins, at least in one private collection. Quite frankly, the unslabbed coins are becoming more scarce, even in the British series even though there are substantial numbers still out there. And you can quite naturally provide your own figures as I have given a few places to start. As long as you don't mind coming to sit my three year old I'll be glad to do your legwork on research. PCGS just slabbed its 25 MILLIONTH coin.

A few points: Quite frankly, I have found them (TPGs) most amenable with regards to alteration of opinion as long as adequate documentation was provided, so I believe that is not a valid criticism. I do think they make mistakes, generally less with the later milled that are more my interest. I do not always agree with the grading, but they seem to have some consistency. I have seen quite decent pictures taken through the pespex of the plastic slabs. I have found it quite easy to make out detail, even of edges in the newer holders. Quite frankly, in numbers, it appears that the majority of Western collectors are starting to accept these slabs so the "who is using" or "who likes them" discussions seem a bit silly. We see Spink, or Baldwin, or St. James KEEPING these coins in slabs. The argument against mishandling (ie dropping or touching) has still not been refuted; and, how many people really utilise gloves when handling their copper? I am trying to figure out where any of the proponents of slabs are telling anyone else what to do? Not seen, so maybe paranoia? In fact a major driver of the market are slabbed coins, so that was a misplaced assertion. As one example, please tell me if the majority of 1927 matte proofs are slabbed, or "raw"? Also, if these are starting to dominate in numbers (and by the way, check the upcoming Heritage NYINC Sale this January), how can other statements be made? I would argue that larger and larger percentages of top coins in the British market are being slabbed, like it or not. I think the storage issue is a difficult one, and also feel they take a lot of space.

Good spot, sure looks like a "P".

I guess that I also am on the fence as slabbing has many benefits, and the act itself is reversible whereas the hamfisted dealer or collector that plants his index finger squarely in the middle or even edge on a copper coin with lustre has committed an irreversible act with permanent consequences. And I have the coins to show it (not MY prints however). Also, there IS a guarantee by the big slabbers such as NGC or PCGS to back the encapsulated coin as authentic. If it can be proved otherwise they will replace, as is my understanding, at full market value. In point of fact, it is the future of higher valued milled coins IMO, the dinosaurs that don't see it coming may need to visit a show such as the ANA to see just that. Lest you thing it is America only, take a look at the burgeoning Chinese market as well. Old fashioned collectors with cabinets and trays of wood would absolutely spin! The other thing I do not understand is the curmudgeonly appproach or commentaries on slabs - if it is not for an individual, so be it. Why criticize others? I guess those with premium carts and buggies did not look on the advent of the automobile favourably either...

Ummm, 12 molar HCl can get you an explosion with a penny dropped in it. How do i know? Uhhh, don't ask!

Wasn't this Istros coin along with another Black Sea/Thracian area ancient "Greek" silver the subject of some sort of scandal with faking?

Yikes, think she might have picked the wrong forum. Maybe she needs a US forum and could discuss bust coinage.... Maybe she wants to model for the next Britannia?

I love Baldwin's but they occasionally are a bit slower than one might like. I might add that they are tremendously better than the "good ole days"...

Well, I got the 1/4d, 1d, 3d-2/6 in a US auction - Stack's in 1996. I got the crown, which I believe had been with the others in a Noble Australia auction several years later. I was the underbidder and had to buy it back from the winner for a bit more - Uggh!

But I think you might have to admit that the aesthetics of the original coin were improved? Did you visit Stockton's site and see the 1892 Micro "O" restoration? What about chasing cast coins or more often medals - this was done at the mint many times?