VickySilver

Interesting that there is no crown and had not seen the before. I remember letting that lot go as it seemed the price too dear.

Yes, and those marks appear to be in relief and so die changes regardless of the specific cause (but clashing IMO).

I really like overall the 1920-1922 half crowns when well struck. Some are extremely so with even a matte proof like appearance in the case of the 1920 and '21. Please have a look at the PCGS census and the PCGS # 512833 e.g. XXX.XX/12345678 Need Help? Verify Sponsored Ads (1920 1/2 Cr Satin) (Proof) 1 / 1 (1920 1/2 Cr Satin) (Proof) PCGS PR61

Yes, thanks Sleepy for posting your pictures. Not VIP. I have three or four proof 1953s, but even the one that is ex-Norweb (set) is the ordinary one as are the others. Richard has a stellar example there - was that ex-Spink SNC? I just missed one "back in the day".

Can you post pictures of the crown or penny, even if it be the more common type? I actually have a 1953 penny in proof ex-Norweb, but sadly is the more common type as well even if especially choice.

As long as we pay the prices, they will do it; for the same reason I refuse to pay more than a certain amount for a loaf of bread at the grocers. I can think of one dealer in the USA that took off on his own from Northeast and follows this policy that Tony speaks of ALL the time - but maybe MORE than double.

Do they all contain that penny? And if a, say, shilling is pulled out can it be identified as "VIP"? As to the second, I believe I can relatively conclusively say "No".

The grading services will require both obverse and reverse to have excellent frosting of devices.

No doubt there will be other opinions, but Phill I can tell you that one thing about the RM: they are not consistent. By that I mean that there seem to be some sets that are well and thoughtfully put together by them as VIP, but others seemingly original that are not as of good a quality. Then there is each individual coin, wherein factors such as how early on in the life of a die it was struck and if a particular specimen was given just a bit more care by the operators. Also, no doubt coins that may have been intended as VIP may have found their way into "ordinary" sets. I have talked with my good friend Steve H. many times in the past about such phenomena as RM proofs of silver and copper 20th C. are a focus of mine, and we (if I may speak for him) are of the opinion that it is not always possible to differentiate on individual merit alone if a particular coin is an ordinary proof or a VIP proof particularly if a specimen that may be the former is of early and good strike with plenty of extra field reflectivity, milling crispness and frosted devices; the latter phenomenon is referred to by some as DMPL, or deep mirror proof like. This may represent a buying opportunity as individual coins come up that are under appreciated as to their quality. A related problem however is that many of the crowns in particular are actually these DMPL coins that are slabbed and sold as VIP, when they may not be. I would caution against paying fancy prices for these. BTW, I personally do not like the term "VIP", and perhaps it is the liberal in me...

I have seen coins under graded for sale by Ebay dealers and definitely in auction (non-eBay format). Some are not so clear from photographs and so occasionally will take a risk if the outlay is not great, though I admit this is not as frequent as formerly. My favorite two examples are: - the Glens 1839 currency 2/6 from year 2000 which they graded as EF, and was clearly better (and I agree with its current slabbing) at PCGS 64 - that is the colourful one on their census site. - Ebay purchase in year 2003 of 1838 sovereign that looked even from sub-standard pictures to be something either polished, or more likely a proof. Turned out it was a milled edge proof and type previously unknown according to Steve Hill. This I traded for well over TEN times purchase price. Another way that coins are advertised as lower condition than some might think they truly are is from individual (as per Rob's discussion) or regional differences in opinion or grading technique. I find that there are general differences in grading here in the US from the UK, and then there to be at least two groupings of graders in the UK (classical conservative grading, and the newer somewhat laughable "liberal" grading that is so often seen in Ebay examples cited here - but also at auction and at some of the "outted" dealers that have been mentioned on these boards. But back to the OP point: dealers in the US, and now increasingly in the UK employ the technique of grading lower on buying than on selling. Perhaps it is only natural, and my point is not to be accusatory but rather to broach the phenomenon (again). For the buying collector, IMO it is wise to factor all this in. Other corollaries might be such as developing a rapoire (sp?) with a couple of dealers that they may represent you at auction, or that you know consistently the grading standards of. I suppose I am with OP in that I try not to pay out the nose if possible and don't like it when it seems excessive advantage is being taken, so it boils down to what is reasonable but not excessive and what that may be to any particular individual.

I don't have an end-all appreciation for provenance, but appreciate coins that were, say, ex-Norweb and have a few. I don't necessarily value them above other similar coins with no provenance - or at least one preserved.

Yes, nice coin though it is the matte variety that is quite scarce for 1976 - original montage of 300 and evidently dumped into a bag and? Not really seen or heard of again.

Well kids, no update at all. I can not find either this 2002 proof set or the 1984 specimen set. However, on a related note, I got two quite rare bits in the last 6 months: 1976 Malta Franklin Mint 25c Uncirculated Matte. - I got this from a coin dealer on Malta. From looks of it, it was tossed in a bag at time and made the trip to Valetta. I have never seen another ( I got the 1976 FM 50c in Matte a couple of years ago). 1984 Franklin Mint Uncirculated (Proof Like) 50c - this I had graded at PCGS and is on their census, also the only one I have ever seen. Numismata?? site has this catalogued but doubt they have ever seen it. I bought this off Ebay for a grand total with shipping of $3.59 USD! l love finding coins like this.

Bernie, excellent! I know I have seen this one before and believe it was at Spink or Baldwin. Do you know its origin? Not a great quality coin, but at the price I guess I couldn't miss too badly...

Funny that in hand the coin has a very glossy appearance, and hard to tell from the photos but the fields do not appear to have been "smoothed". I believe that although certainly having suffered some wear that the original strike was very soft. I was a bit disappointed, but not terribly so, by the rim issues, etc. Very glad to have it. I will try to compare it to the 1922 specimen photos and see what I can make out - if anything (LOL).

OP coin looks "specimenish" to me. I like the overall appearance as being proof

1887 and 1893 5 sovs are ALWAYS available - not IMO rarities. This also makes me wonder how many actual collectors there are of these, so NOT a usual supply/demand situation.

I always cheer for the fools bidding on the gold 5 sovs. Spend, spend, spend. For what? I think one of the BSJ proofs was estimated at something like 60k quid

I found some really rare patterns there, some unknown previously or at least not published - and not for a lot at that. I really looked forward to their listings, even when I was not bidding. Sad to hear really....

Yes, very poor quality of imitation of an initially poorly designed Pobjoy product.

I'm not sure that at least a portion of the hairlines are die prep - I don't see them carrying over on to the devices or lettering. However, I do agree that they are very temperamental - or maybe worse. Some of their coins graded "62" need to be looked at as sometimes they are really nice!

LOL, that is what happened to me. Too late to bid on Auction 37 tho....

OK, I confess, I bought the 1922/27 penny. Had to at that price, LOL.

Yes, nice. I had to part with a lot more for one from Colin Cooke years ago - when the pound was HIGHER. Good work!

Can we (I) ask the crass question as to how much it went for. Out of curiosity, what would YOU grade it. Some of the Waterbird coins were grossly overgraded (such as the 1854 shilling and florin). I thought the 1922 penny a good deal at 1100...