VickySilver

I have a number of copper nickel penny and half penny strikes in CuNi and they don't look like this specimen. I am suspicious to say the least and did not bid, even though I like these bits.

I have a slabbed VIP proof that I know is in fact that and was originally a RAS coin. Looks quite different than the specimen in question. Copper nickel is a good harder than even .500 silver and a bit easier to find with better grades (either in or out of the slab). The harder bit as I've said before on another post or two is that a deep cameo proof designated coin looks very similar to the so-called VIP proof coin. Until the last five or so years a legit VIP 1951 or 1960 would go for the 300-450 quid, and now these much lesser pieces appear to be fetching such a price - I think it may depend on the venue and IMO do not believe this coin "worth the money". My value would be about 50 pounds, and that would be reasonable generous.

Hmmm, brings to mind the question as to whether the RM ever plated any of the later coins??? Does anybody know the answer? I have a few like the just pictured 1974 coin that are of original off-metal and one or two that look to be chrome or vanadium plated, all of which were gotten in a lot some while ago at extra-cheap price.

Certainly you would have the advantage over us having it in hand, but I still tend to concur. Firstly detail puts it IMO in the aEF category - kind of hedging - but that might get an MS45 on the graded TPG 70 point scale. The wear pattern indeed looks to be IMO cleaned though, and a soft strike on Brit's head and face as well as minimally so, and about average, for E7 bust. I tried for many years to get a superior specimen for strike and [lack of] wear and had not much success, as was the case with the '08 shilling. Also my opinion but that is a better date, however much this series languishes.

I have also seen a few higher grade 19KNs that have a brassy appearance that have managed to acquire some unpleasant dark fingerprinting. These would be otherwise gEF coins - well, two of them anyway. I don't believe, but can not prove they were cleaned either. I have one that I will try to post [eventually!].

Eddie's Britannia on the florin looks rather mean and not very feminine though the flowing robes are nice... Nice coins there Rob and AC.

As the Boards are a bit slow, I thought I'd toss this out there: These pennies, especially those of 1918 and 1919 are often stated to be scarcer and even rare in well struck and better preserved state. Perhaps members would like to comment. IMO, the 1912 H can occasionally come poorly struck but is readily available with excellent strike and lustre. Might be a bit overpriced even... The Heaton coins of the latter two years are usually panned for quality of strike and thought to be scarce. In my experience, the 1918 is indeed usually poorly struck with mushy details and recall there being a hoard of such coming to market in the latter '80s. Overall, the most common of the latter group of four. Somewhat scarcer in "full red", is pretty scarce well struck. The 1919 H, is IMO decidedly scarcer yet in well struck form and when of good alloy. Many times what looks to be perhaps a nicer specimen is spoiled by metal composition issues, directly or indirectly as there can be unpleasant toning which I have seen on the obverse especially. In my experience, this date in truly top condition may be as scarce as the 1918 KN. The KN issues generally come slightly better struck than their H counterparts, but a bit worse than London issues (which may also come poorly struck). Both the 1918 and 1919 appear to be overall scarcer in GEF or uncirculated condition than the Heaton pennies. Overall, I sure haven't seen much interest in these or the later 1926 ME penny, but appreciate them... PS - I don't seem to be able to post the example of the 1918 H penny on www.northeastcoin.com that is MS64 but of the usual poor strike

Horror of horrors, Moore patterns in with the Royal Mint bits! Geoffrey Hearn(e) next? LOL..

Good point if one is fortunate enough to have such. I guess there might be room for a miscellaneous box. Lucky me just has later milled bits with no private mint patterns.

As an inherently illogical person with scientific training that somewhat reversed that trait, I am rather a fan of the obvious as has been stated above: organise by hammered then milled and then by denomination, then date. Patterns and proofs to fit in by date accordingly. I try to do this as easier to keep track of, although I must admit that I occasionally forget about a certain pattern or other rarity as it is lost in the mix...

Actually, on "commercial" infomercial TV there are shows in the US like "Coin Vault", and the rival show (forgot the name) that Tomaska appears on, and they apparently sell many tens of thousands of pounds worth of coins on nearly a daily basis. Mostly Morgan dollars, and bullion with the occasional Britannia or Libertad or Panda thrown in. These are frequently slabbed. One of the experts is Tomaska, who has indeed written some books on scarcity and value of later dated US coins including proofs. It is actually quite comical and worth a look if you have the chance for a good laugh or two. Shameless huckstering with a bit of Texas polish to boot. That having been said, I don't have a problem with Dave's video and think although basic should be required tutorial for beginning buyers of slabbed bits.

He has been involved in grading Brit rarities and has been the main opinion. I don't know what his technical title was or is.

Yes, I agree with that. PCGS is a bit on the stick as David Hall, a principle in the firm, also sells PCGS coins though they are US coins. No connection to Brit coins that I am aware of. One of the main graders at PCGS is/was (I do not have confirmation of his current status) Karl Stephens. I know that they seem to indicate that up to three graders look at a particular coin there but am unaware of any other graders.

Well, they are but another source. I think customer service has always been good to me, the pictures good, very rapid dispersement of Lots won. However, rarities in their sales when slabbed do tend to bring big number prices - great for the seller, intimidating for the buyer. Quite honestly I think I would consider them to sell my better pieces should the day come. As dear Rob has said before: "know your coins" (or something to that effect). Very, very occasionally they have a decent bit at a decent price in my series but I like looking at their pieces in any case. I guess just a bit frustrated at what is happening to aspects of the market.

Was that a matte? Well, possibly not if there were two as that would be an unusual occasion. Jaggy, do post pictures!

I certainly pray that is true, tough sledding for the nearer term in many series...

Rob, I always appreciate your input and also that you are rightly confident in your grading but perhaps there are other facets to this whole thing. As Ex- has said, not all collectors are as advanced or confident in their grading capability. So they may have a different perspective than you or I when it comes to a slabbed TPG product. Perhaps even more important, if your coin were up for sale would you not want it to fetch the best price possible? And what of your heirs should they choose to dispose of your holdings? And nowadays, one just might have to consider an elephant in the room - TPGs such as PCGS and a sale through Heritage, I would think? I do agree that some of the micro-varieties are missed by these people, and sometimes they don't seem to know the difference between hairlines and die polish, but yet they do lend themselves to convertibility . Also, I need not remind you of the [probably] worse subjective grading demonstrated by some old fashioned dealers that even advertise prominently in Coin News (how about a certain J.W. as an example?).

The current Ford GT40 not a slouch either! I agree that the 100 point scale "innovation" did isolate CGS to some degree. Won't throw ICCS into the mix as that Canadian firm has not IMO graded a critical mass of coins. In former times, and I have a couple of coins in their holders (not slabs), they were fairly conservative in their allotted grades. I agree with Rob's point that when a named provenance such as Newman is used, that the grading may be a bit slack and that also the price a bit "fancy" for that slackened grade as well. Caveat emptor!

And many of us must admit that we were frankly spoiled by the market from early '90s until about 3-4 years ago. I will confess to inhaling about everything that was pre decimal later milled. Now I try to be VERY selective, and just go for the odd rarity. I am really perplexed by who is participating (other than the oft-maligned "investors") in auction sales of the George 4, William 4, and even Victoria gold proofs. As I had mentioned in an earlier post, other similar coins such as the 1831 proof crown may by numbers be scarce but continually available - Heritage alone have had TEN on sale since 2010. Or those infernal Gothic Crowns fetching 20 and 30k quid! And for God's sake, who was buying all those Newman bits in excess of 10k. I guess there must be more collectors of Swedish coins than at least I am aware of... So maybe the challenge is to find good coins in the current market?

I like to call these "created rarities", and are quite contrived which on some US chat boards they have NO problem with. Amazing!

Quite honestly these auctions put a bit of fear into me. Will they set new trends in prices (even if they are a bit higher)? Will normal, well kind of normal, collectors be priced out of decent pieces? Will these continued bombardments on prices create a sucking vortex of upward spiraling prices, or at least contribute to them? I was able recently to obtain a very nice, and best I've 1847/6 groat for a reasonable price. Glad that EPN did not get a hold of it...

Uhh, I think there may only be one 1933 that would even be remotely available so would have to rate it similarly to the 1954 penny.

Ah, yes, good work on this one AC. I pretty much have left the copper proofs alone, the same would not have been so a couple years ago...There was quite a lineup of Bun proofs, maybe as many as I've seen. There has really been quite a lot on sale this January! At these prices, I think at least a few of us need to really cone down our collecting focus.

Thanks, Rob. I even received hard copy of the catalogue but it was no better. For some reason I am getting a backlog of 1871s that are very nice but just not quite there. For the '69 to go for that there must have been (a) problem(s) IMO... Was peripherally interested in the 1962 proof as well but sometimes one has to play a bit conservative as I was saying.

Not quite on board with BRG's acetic acid bit, as IMO is usually a CuCl2 oxidation if I remember chemistry from 30 years ago! And Coinery you are right in that I suppose verd has to start somewhere. Maybe we are talking probability, and I certainly did not look at the piece but it does have the appearance of a few other bits I have seen. I sure would be tempted to try the acetone very briefly and maybe a mild detergent with very liberal wash and the obligatory white cotton tamp down sans "the rub". Rob, always amazed by the plethora of coins you have and show...