Mat

Im pretty sure that its one of the Danish types, there are 5 or 6 variations I think which were struck under Harthacnut, the one pictured as S.1170 is one of the rarer Danish types I believe. Maybe I should clarify with the ebayer if he is saying that it is simply not a Harthacnut penny (which we already know) or whether its not one of the Danish types that were struck under Harthacnut.....

I bought an F/gF 1848 half crown, when it arrived I spotted it is a clear 8 over 7 over date. Looked in Spink and the value is given as 'Extremely Rare', my jaw dropped! Then looked up previous 8/7 sales and my jaw dropped even more! A couple of specimens at London coins sold for £240 and £280! Thought I had something in the same value category as a 1933 penny, for about 3 milliseconds. This is the third time now I have bought a coin that Spink gives a value of 'Extremely Rare' and its worth less than 1000 quid!

I certainly do take the guides with a pinch of salt, especially when it comes to the minor variations. Not at all surprised on the price but would not have expected Spink to put the 'Extremely Rare' mark on a coin that as you say does come up a couple of times a year. I personally don’t consider these kind of over dates a particularly rare variation, however obviously the market dictates not me! I find that sovereign pricing is extremely complex with many of the sales and collectors outside the UK, I have only touched the surface with them on the key dates but do not feel too comfortable with them. I had an 1874 in gF to aVF for sale, and in 2 months the best offer I had was barely half the book value for F at the time.

Not necessarily, largely depends on the dealer and the contract law in their country. I bought a very rare gold one Lira, the dealer offered a no quibble 28 day return, I listed it for sale before it arrived but when it arrived I noticed an edge ding which was not shown in a catalogue. The seller refused the return because I had listed it for sale and the Italian solicitor that I used to start proceedings against him found that he was entitled to as in Italian law by offering an item for sale constituted as me accepting the good which disqualified the no quibble return part of the contract. Luckily I managed to break even on it.

Two weeks, hmmmm I guess ebay may be the quick option here as long as it does not tiff the dealer off if he sees it and your going return it....

I would give it an EF. Very hard to capture the hair properly with Eddy.

Actually the camera I use only has a value of about £80 now! In 2008 it was a £399, top of the range for a 'normal point and click' camera but it has an awesome Macro mode... I tend to Stick by Sony for cameras as they never let me down but they typically have a rubbish battery life! The lights from Ikea are great though, they are £12 LED directional lamps which do the job just perfect! If there is anything you like on there just let me know and of course we can trade at the cheapest price!

Hi all, I am struggling with this shilling, the closest to it in Spink is s.2795 but the bust is of s.2881, the vendor stated there was no example in the Brooker collection, has anyone seen another one of these before or know of another example with sales history? Thanks Mat

Expert on contract law... First you need to determine which piece of legislation covers the transaction: Is the seller a business or acting in the course of a business (acting in the course of a business can only be determined by the courts where intention and frequency of sales will come into question). If yes then the Sale of Goods Act 1979 is applicable and Distance Selling Regulations 2000 for none auction format items. In auction format, a seller is legally obligated to honour the transaction regardless of the price it sells for, however if the seller can prove that there was a description error, the court shall usually deem the transaction void because no contract shall exist if the buyer is trying to contract for something that is actually something else no matter who would benefit! However if the seller states that the item has been misplaced, then the seller is obligated to offer an item of equal specification regardless of value. However as that may be a little impractical with coins, courts may have to refer to case law and base their decision on previous cases. In fixed price format the law is entirely different. In the case of the 1827 penny the seller is under no legal obligation whatsoever to honour the transaction. The law does not allow someone to profit from a transaction where there is a clear error. Now this is the complex bit as there are many factors: The court will determine the buyers 'reasonable skill and knowledge' in the subject matter, ie assess whether the buyer clearly knew the £1 buy it now was likely to have been an error or not. If the court found that the buyer was a novice and knew nothing about coins, the buyer would have a marginally stronger case but would still not win as the next factor will now be considered: The court would need evidence from the seller that there was a listing error in the price, this is obviously easy to prove as he could use records of other 1827 penny sales, coin price guides, his receipt of when he bought it etc... Then case simply closed, seller would win hands down. However of the coin was listed at £100 but the seller will not honour it because he has made a price error, the court would need more evidence of the error. In this situation an independent expert would be drawn upon to determine if £100 is the industry average for this item in this condition, also the sellers original buying cost and average business margins may be taken into consideration to see if £100 really would be his selling price. Now for sellers that are not a business or not acting in the course of a business: None of the above law applies, SOGA, DSRs and Consumer protection from unfair regs 2008 will only apply to a business. Only common law and the basic elements of contract law shall apply in this situation. The court would take a much more practical view on the case: They would order the transaction void as there is any sort of conflict, they would deem that the buyer has not lost and not gained and same for the seller, and especially If they feel that the buyer is exploiting a genuine error, the seller would usually always win. If the seller does not return the buyers money in a reasonable time, (court would determine what is reasonable), the court would order the seller to return the money, NOT order him to honour the transaction. And a little bit of case law to back up the above.... Argos accidently sold some TV sets for £2.99 which they did not have to honour: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/ARGOS+FACE+LEGAL+BATTLE+OVER+pounds+3+TV+SETS+BLUNDER.-a060352139 And Debenhams issued £10 off £25 vouchers which should have been off £50 which does sound a little more plausible which some of them they might have been honoured... again this is where buyers 'reasonable skill and knowledge' in the subject matter comes in to play: http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/mar/29/consumeraffairs I hope I have enlightened you all on the joys of contract law! If the 1827 was being sold from an EU country DSRs would have to be used to determine the case.

Ah thanks for that Tom, I just wanted to make sure that I had not stumbled across a little rarity. The one in the picture is very nice indeed. I had never seen one of these shillings with that bust and a ton mm together.

Thanks Tom, I have never seen that particular bust on sharp F2/1, I was wondering if you had seen another anywhere?

Reverse

Yesterday was the first time in a year that I didn’t bother to attend as the trend of walking away with nothing became too consistent. And I am sure it would have been the same again, I placed 29 bids over the net (inc a £1500 bid on that bulk lot) without viewing them and won nothing! I used to take a lot of stuff to sell there as I made a 10% deal with them but London coins results ended up winning me over (despite their non-existent customer service), especially for the hammered that I sell, the very rare specialist hammered never used to meet my reserve at W&W but always sold plus good profit at London coins.

Personally...I would say 1872, which is also the only Gothic I ever saw in circulation... Wow your doing very well for you age!

Thanks Mat. I'll try and get a better photo as soon as I can. I don't think someone removed the last digit. I've got a x15 power magnifigher and the disk is smooth where the digit should be. There is no sign of any fiddling. In fact the area has some patina and a little luster shows through. The coin is normal in all other respects. If someone had removed the last digit, I would have thought they would flog it on ebay. But you can't rule out "jokers" or pranksters. I'm as sure as I can be though that the coin is genuine and unaltered.. Assuming the coin wasn't altered, how could this happen? If a bit of metal had got between the blank and the die, I would expect to see some type of "strike" where the digit should be. But I'm no expert. Has anyone seen something similar to this? Cheers, Marc I'll see if this picture will work. I think the only way for me to give you a 99% accurate answer is if I had the coin in my hands to have a look. I use a 400x digital microscope to look at these kind of things as you cannot hide from that magnification. The reason I am so sceptical is because I have seen a small number of specimens where this has been done. Although never to a modern worthless coin... That fact of what the coin is suggests that it may well be a genuine error, but again unless I had it here I can only make assumptions. In terms of value, its worth what someone is prepared to pay for it as opposed to a book guide. Most reputable coin auction houses would probably not accept it unless it was accompanied by some sort of documentation that its not altered. If they did accept it, it would probably fetch somewhere around £50 to £150. If you sling it on ebay as it is and state that you can see no evidence of tampering... although you are no expert! Im sure enough people would have a bid up to £30-£50 for it.

Don’t worry, they are a quirky bunch... they even pull me up on my poor spelling! But Azda and 400 do get 10/10 for helping my on 100% of my posts, and my posts usually do ask for help opposed to just chatting. A clear image would be useful for this coin, with modern coins coming into the lime light over the last couple of years with the 20p, 1982 2p and £2 necklace roomer, it would not surprise me at all to see evidence of the last digit being skilfully removed.

Hi All Sorry for my absence from the forum, I have been busy trying to sort jobs however Mr Cameron does not seem to think that we need many trading standards officers any more :-( So... I have finally bit the bullet and started to put together a plan for a small coin business. There are lots of questions I would like to ask, however I realise many of you that have a business may not want to divulge such information, so opposed to asking you directly, I thought I would leave it open in the forum for anyone to add at their own will. As some of you know I have been trading (as a hobby) since 2002 on ebay, word of mouth and through the larger auctions for the super rare ones. My plan is to set up my own site to eliminate the ghastly selling fees, operate from the box room at home and hold around £30k of stock at any one time. Have not decided whether to specialise or hold all types. I have been particularly successful with the top shelf hammered crowns, however £30k will not go very far at all if I was to specialise in them. Ebay has been such a powerful tool for me and I know it is going to generate the biggest audience, but as you all know the total fees from a £3k crown will be around £180 if paid with paypal and that really must be eliminated. My biggest concern is getting traffic and shifting the stock as fast as I have been doing, I wanted to ask if any of you with sites have a week or even weeks go by without a sale? What insurance would you recommend for operating stock of this value from home? Do you use your home address of set up a PO Box? Do you have much family time left if you are doing this as well as your day job? (Wife’s concern) How do you combat customs charges when you are buying in if the seller declares the full value? Would you advise to voluntarily register for VAT if your under the threshold? Any other useful hints and tips? Again I would not expect anyone to start sharing the above information freely, please just feel free to add anything you wish. Thanks Mat

Or Technically de-slab Very sorry about the pictures, its almost impossible to take pics through a slab, especially of Edward's hair, and that’s hard enough at the best of times without a slab! I just bought this 1903 half crown, its slabbed at American grade AU58 which I believe is 1 grade point from being mint state? I do not believe the slab or the determined grade is doing the coin any justice. Its practically got full mint lustre with a couple of bag marks. The only significant mark is the small black one in front of Edwards mouth and that is not a dig or scratch. The crud above Edward’s head it on the slab not the coin. And the age old question is................Would any one recommend removing the coin out of the slab? And would anyone push the boundaries of a higher grade?

Hi all Please could I ask for help in identifying the correct dies used for the following pennies... From a large batch I bought I have pretty much identified all the dies from 1862 onwards, however the 1860 and 1861 have proved to be a bit of a pain to me! I am not much for the different minor varieties, however I don’t want to miss the boat if one of them is a rare one. The batch also contained an 1860 penny with a hyphen between the 18-60. It may well be crud stuck in the die but its a very well formed piece of crud if it is! To start with I noticed very different date spreads between them. Thanks Mat

No, quite. What is it with these older, non coin collecting females ? Am I a goose being fattened until my liver bursts and can be used in fois gras ? I mean for Christ's sake, I've basically been pinned down for 9 hours and had food driven down my throat. I'm all in favour of a bit of festive spirit and I try to reciprocate, but approach me with a pie (any filling) for several weeks and I will gun you down like a dog. Thats the thing these females are lethal! The sheer quantity of chocolate that appears to circulate through this house in December is phenomenal and its all female doing. If I am to even mention the word coin in their presence I am told off or told to make sure I keep those dirty old pieces of metal away from them or the living room.

Yes of course we have not over eaten... I have retreated to my coin room to burn off all the trimmings. While we are on the 1860-1 pennies I thought I would show you this one that I mentioned in the original post, most likely a piece of debris stuck in the flan or die unless anyone can tell me different? Shame Mr Green has made himself a home on the reverse side.

Thank you for all your help guys, I appreciate it. I have never owned a peck or a freeman book, so only ever had the Spink guidance to go on which I feel is less than adequate for 1860 and 1861.

That’s the bit I am having most difficulty with! I have noticed one of the past London sales has the sale close dropped 1 of the 1861, I will need to blow up the images and compare to see if it is the same die paring: 01/03/2009 124 695 Penny 1861 Freeman 20 dies 2+G UNC toned, Very Rare, Ex-Laurie Bamford collection http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/webcatalogue/124/L695R.JPG http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/webcatalogue/124/L695.JPG I'm no expert on those first two years either (in fact I need Freeman to decipher most bun varieties, truth be told). However, the variation in spacings of the date numerals - particularly the last one - is a common feature of those early years. You probably need to be looking at other parts of the design to see the respective die combinations.

None of the obverse sides have the signature and Pic 1 is the only reverse with a signature which is under the shield. I believe to be the common die combination, however the date spread seems to be particularly wide on this specimen. Pic 2 I am unable to identify and has an unusually close and dropped 1 at the end of the date, I have never seen that before with this date? Pic 3 I am unable to identify Pic 4 appears to have the same lighthouse as pic 1, however no signature under the shield.

Hi all, I cannot go into much detail at the moment as I am working, but just wanted to touch on the Fieldings auction on Saturday to give a couple of important points... Viewing was absolutely essential for the lots, bidding on the phone/net based on the catalogue descriptions could have made you bid over or under by £1000+ For example: Lots described as "Approximately 200 half crowns, Victora, Edward VII and George V" There were just a couple of vicky, few edward and 270 george v. There was no more than £1000 in scrap in the lot, all coins were strictly F at the most with no rare dates, yet internet and phone bids pushed it up to £1900 with the commission. There was nothing more than scrap silver. Also I decided to count a lot to see how accurate "Approximately" was. One of the lots described as approx 200 half crowns Ge V to Ge VI, had 171 coins in it. The 29 coins short is £100 difference in scrap value! A huge portion of the bank notes were operation bernard (Nazi white fivers, tens and twentys). The catalogue just described them as what any inexperienced perceived them to be. The auctioneer stressed several times in the house that they are sold as seen, no returns and the buyer must use their own opinion etc.. However that caveat did not reach the phone/net bidders. A John Bradbury 10/- Dardanniels over print was clearly a fake and in poor condition, a phone bidder won it for £525. It was worth no more than £25 as a counterfeit. If any buyers are in this situation, I would urge you to contact the auction house to discuss, if they will not move on their no returns decision, inform them that it is a breach of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and the Sales of Goods Act (Trade descriptions act is obsolete and DSRs don’t cover auction unless fixed price)and there is nothing in the brochure to suggest sold as seen, there was no suggestion from the brochure that they are NOT experts in coins and notes and that you could only rely on their description. Failing that phone Consumer Direct and escalate it to trading standards. The 1663 GARTIA error shilling sold for £3150 inc commission. I just kept bidding and the guy in front of me just kept going and going, based on what he paid for some other lots I didn’t think he was going to stop until he won it.