Gary D

I have little interest in bank notes, you need to talk to my wife, she can get through them at an alarming rate in the local shoe shop. Perhaps Chris could be persuaded to add a banknote section to see if it would grow with time. Gary

Does he have illustrations, Gary? If so, can you see from them if 1805 is indeed the first obverse? (But in any case, the obverse 1 does have a "full neck" while the shallow protrait has a "hollow neck"). Also, does he state rarities? If he does I should estimate that 1805 will be the rarest, unless any of those low relief varieties is also truly rare. And you're right - Spink have listed those descriptors the wrong way round ! (At least in the 2005 book which is the latest I have). 'Nose to S' is the common shallow portrait (I of Georgivs to space), 'nose to SV' is the rare first obverse (I of Georgivs to bead full neck). Ignore your Spinks, folks ... Apart from a discription Davies doesn't give much more information. There are pictures but they are just close-ups of the areas he's interested in, eg. RGIVS showing bead alignment and IMP showing the tuft alignment. He also doesn't give rarities although he does give a 1982 values in mint condition. 1805 £85, 1806 £42, 1807 £75, 1808 £60 and 1809 £30. I guess you could infer comparitive rarity from this. Gary Thanks Gary, very interesting. I just wonder how many collectors are actually aware of these very subtle differences. Fortunately not many when I'm looking for them on ebay, unfortunately not many when I'm trying to sell them on ebay. Gary

As you correctly say, the variations in the internal corner can make it difficult to determine the pointing. I found that to use the corner as a marker you need to get slightly over the coin and sight the external corner which being sharp gives a good indicator. It's interesting what you say about the documentation of this variety as DaveG38 has it described and illustrated in his excellent new varieties book. It would be interest to know his source as I would be surprised to find that this characteristic had not been previously described. About the middle of 2006 I start to put together an ebook based on a scan of Freemans with a section on the 3d and varieties found since Freeman was last published. This happened to be a couple of week before the Freeman reprint which knocked the project on the head. If anyone is interested in the 3d section I would be happy to email it. Gary

I'm not sure precisely how the brass 3d was minted. Was the collar for the dodecahedral edge separate? If so, if might be that - with only a small mintage required for the Colonies - they decided to re-use a rounded edge collar from an earlier year just to get the most out of it and save cost. Then turned to a sharp edge when the rounded edge was finished. If Bob's count holds up, we can deduce that they got pretty good use out of that old collar The 1948 comes in both sharp and rounded which is why I'd not looked any further with the 1949. I obviously did not looked at Peck close enough to see that the 1949 had reverted to the round edge type. Something I have wondered about is, do the proofs have rounded or sharp edges as this would be an expanation as to why some years have both types . Gary

Does he have illustrations, Gary? If so, can you see from them if 1805 is indeed the first obverse? (But in any case, the obverse 1 does have a "full neck" while the shallow protrait has a "hollow neck"). Also, does he state rarities? If he does I should estimate that 1805 will be the rarest, unless any of those low relief varieties is also truly rare. And you're right - Spink have listed those descriptors the wrong way round ! (At least in the 2005 book which is the latest I have). 'Nose to S' is the common shallow portrait (I of Georgivs to space), 'nose to SV' is the rare first obverse (I of Georgivs to bead full neck). Ignore your Spinks, folks ... Apart from a discription Davies doesn't give much more information. There are pictures but they are just close-ups of the areas he's interested in, eg. RGIVS showing bead alignment and IMP showing the tuft alignment. He also doesn't give rarities although he does give a 1982 values in mint condition. 1805 £85, 1806 £42, 1807 £75, 1808 £60 and 1809 £30. I guess you could infer comparitive rarity from this. Gary

This is a hopelessly difficult question to answer. Coin collecting (and therefore prices) has different stimuli at different times : Late 60s (medium inflation, but impending decimalisation) : coin collecting fever, modern coin prices go through the roof Mid 70s (high inflation) : post-decimalisation, modern prices collapse, but pre-1887 values increase sharply (a "true" market) Early 80s (medium inflation) : speculation e.g. in silver bullion, pushes coin prices to 'silly levels' Mid 80s - mid 90s (low inflation) : gradual stabilisation (aka decline) in coin values, leading to stagnation Mid 90s - early millennium (low) : shortages of good material; a return to coin collecting by many of the '60s schoolkids'; the takeover of the Standard Catalogue by Spink - prices go up double or threefold or even more Currently : coin values stabilising from the dramatic increases, but shortage of good material persists Whether the economic recession will result in a 'flight of money' (leading to lower coin values), or see coins as a 'hedge against recession and better than shares' (which should stimulate the market), remains to be seen. But, it will be increasingly true that there will be more collectors than coins as the supply of pre-decimal coins remains ever-fixed. Never has the maxim 'buy the best quality you can afford' been so true. To give you a humbling lesson : 12 years ago, new to dealing and therefore still wedded to 'book price', I bid for a BU 1873 bronze penny at auction, pulling out when the bidding went past the then book price of £75. I should have known better, I should have hung on. That coin would now easily fetch £400, probably considerably more. I hate to say it but the biggest skew on coin prices in the last 3-4 years has been ebay. It's the only dealer in town with a daily average of 40,000 UK coins. It's has certainly made coin collecting widely accessible.

That's true - it's a difficult date in both shillings and halfcrowns, in high grade. However, the 1921 shilling with the 1911-1920 obverse is very rare indeed, especially in top grades. Good luck with tracking that one down! A bit of research has revealed the reason for the 1921 problems. clicky Another thing that make 1921 tough is the five Davies types for this year, I still need the nose to VS which come up ocassionally but I'm looking for EF or better. I'm not aware of these different types & would be interested to know. By "nose to VS", do you mean one of these, currently for sale on e bay ? No, that's the "nose to S" variety (i.e. George V Obverse 2 used between 1920 and 1926). The "nose to VS" variety is Obverse 1, the slightly smaller, deeper cut, better defined obverse that was used between 1911 and 1920. That's what I was referring to above when I was talking about 'good luck tracking it down' (but thanks for the research anyway 1949threepence - I think that site doesn't even know about this variety, or should have mentioned it). A small number of 1921 shillings is the only time that Obverse 1 makes an appearance on larger silver after 1920, and it's rare. I only have one, and only in VF. The chances of finding an Unc is very small indeed, and Spink price that variety far too low in my opinion (I was the one who got them to incorporate the two obverses - specifically for this variety - in the Standard Catalogue, and it was my scans of the two 1921 shillings I own, on which I'd highlighted the position of the nose to the legend, that prompted them to come up with the 'nose to S' and 'nose to VS' descriptors.) I'd be interested to know the differences that mark the 5 Davies varieties? Footnote : I think another reason that 1920 and 1921 are difficult dates, is because of the alloy change. People probably began to hoard pre-20 for its silver content, and got rid of the 50% coins as quickly as they could. Davies doesn't use the nose as a pointer and I suspect he orders them the oposite way around to spinks which is very confusing. Davies 1805 is I of Georgivs to bead full neck, Rev tuft between I and M, right leg on N in IND to bead. Davies 1806 I of Georgivs to space low relief head, Rev tuft between I and M, right leg of N in IND to bead. Davies 1807 I of Georgivs to space low relief head, Rev tuft closer to M, right leg of N in IND to space. Davies 1808 is I of Georgivs to bead low relief head, Rev tuft between I and M, right leg of N in IND to bead. And finally Davies 1809 is I of Georgivs to bead low relief head, Rev tuft closer to M, right leg of N in IND to space.

All four of my 1941's are type c. Both my 1949's are rounded edge (of course). I've never seen a sharp cornered '49, nor knew of their existence before reading this. So thanks. I also only found out about the 1949 sharp edge very recently, likewise I was not aware of Saltzman until quite recently. I wonder how many collector are aware of these lesser know publications. I suspect most only follow Spinks, Freeman, Davies, Peck etc. Oh and Rotographic of course. As to the 1941 I suspect mine are a and c also, I'm not really sure what to look for on the inner edges.

That's true - it's a difficult date in both shillings and halfcrowns, in high grade. However, the 1921 shilling with the 1911-1920 obverse is very rare indeed, especially in top grades. Good luck with tracking that one down! A bit of research has revealed the reason for the 1921 problems. clicky Another thing that make 1921 tough is the five Davies types for this year, I still need the nose to VS which come up ocassionally but I'm looking for EF or better.

I don't - I've never seen a proof or a specimen for that series, apart from the 1935 'raised edge proof' crown. But the very sharp edges are a good sign. An early strike wouldn't give that in my opinion. It's not definitive of course. I have a 1935 specimen which is in its red box similar to the specimen/proof crown. I also have what I assume to be an early strike. They are practically indistinguishable although perhaps in the area of the rim the edge of the rim to the beads is a bit sharper.

The 20p seems to have set a trend, 2p are popping up all over. Everone seems to think that the words New Pence was an error, obviously from the 1983 mule.

The were specimen issues for both those years. They can be proof like on the fields.

Copper and bronze needs more careful storage than silver, and protection from the elements. I use coin cabinets originally got from the leading supplier (can't remember the name - based in St Leonards On Sea?) - these use red felt for the coins and they have served me well. However, I don't know if this was a special fabric or just any old red felt. Most coin trays you see have this same red fabric in them, and it is neutral and non-reactive. I also have a coin cabinet from St Leonards On Sea. All my bronze is toning nicely

Not weak strikes - there are two obverses used in 1920 : the first is the one used between 1911 and 1919 with a deeply cut, slightly smaller portrait, the second a shallower one with only lightly defined hair detail that was used between 1920 and 1926 on shillings, florins and halfcrowns. This second one was introduced only months after the alloy change, in an attempt to reduce the notorious "ghosting" problem (a similar obverse change was also applied on the pennies between 1921 and 1926). It is slightly confusing because two things occurred almost simultaneously : 1. a high rise in the price of silver that necessitated the change to a 50% silver alloy and 2. the last attempt by The Royal Mint to eliminate the 'ghosting' problem that was only finally resolved by the introduction of the modified portrait in 1926. The two obverses occur on the 1920 coins about equally. Coins of the first obverse type are very much easier to find in high grade (as are the pre-1920 .925 silver coins). The second obverse - the shallow one - provides major problems as they began to wear very quickly indeed, and as a result it is normal to find coins of this series a whole grade or more lower on the obverse, than the reverse. Davies also quotes two reverses giving four varieties, plus a third obverse giving five varieties in total. Gary

Hi David, auction has finished. We got £240 for it. We are off to Argos now. My son is so pleased that he can buy a PS3 for £50 and of course 20p! Thanks for all the advice given by you guys. Anna Just a tip, make sure you have the money before you go out and spend it. I'm sure there will be plenty of non payments when people wake up in the cold light of day and see how foolish they have been. And if it's just in your paypal account wait until it clears your bank. Gary

It will always be a collectable coin as long as there are people collecting them because the Royal Mint makes very few errors and this is a true error coin as opposed to a faulty strike which would be a random event. Having said that, 2 minutes ago on ebay there were 563 undated 20p coins listed. These have been known about for months and have had a continuous presence on ebay since their discovery, so ebay listings alone must run into thousands. The mint estimated 100,000-200,000 were struck. This is NOT rare. The general consensus is that they are worth about £30 or so based on coins of similar rarity. If you can find someone stupid enough to pay £300 or whatever for it then I suggest you take the money and run. You can always find another one to replace it, and if you really want one for posterity you should be able to get one for a few tens of pounds by waiting long enough for the hysteria to die away. This is a ludicrously overheated market. Hi Rob, Thank you very much for your advice. Looks like I will be taking your advice 'taking the money and running to the nearest shop which sells a play station 2 if my son has anything to do with it!!!' As you say, if someone is daft enough to pay over the odds for it well I guess my son can purchase his PS2 instead of just a game for it! Looks like there will now be 564 undated 20p coins listed on ebay now! lol. Thanks again - and have a good day Anna Over a thousand now, surely enough for people to realise that they are not rare. Loads of 2008s to catch the unwary

Yes that is both sides and I'm thinking slabbing it may increase it's value, the value of which I have no idea at present. Gary Gary, What's the story behind the existence of the double tailed penny? Was it made from two different dies. This seems likely as the two reverses are slightly different. If two dies were used then this could mean that there are two different minor varieties of the 1970 proof penny. The difference that I can see is in the pointing of the centre prong of the trident. On the left hand picture it seems to point directly to a bead, whereas on the right it seems to point to the right of the bead. Can you confirm this? If so, can anybody else confirm that there are two minor types of 1970 proof penny? That's interesting, I hadn't looked past it being a genuin error. The are no signs even under my works 20x microscope of any join either around the edge or inside the beading so I believe it's mint error. I will look closer at the pointing this evening when I get home. Gary Gary, I wasn't suggesting in any way that it wasn't genuine. Only that however it was made, it appears to have used different dies for each side, unless, of course, something about the photographs is deceiving me. If two dies have been used, then it seems reasonable to me to expect that there are specimens of the normal coin with either of the two reverse dies out there somewhere. Just had a look and both sides are as identical as I can make out. Must be the photo. I guess I should send it off to the Royal Mint for authentication. Perhaps I will keep it in my collection although it would be nice to get it published as a known error. I saw a double sided brass 3d recently in an american auction with an estimate of something like $3500. I assume the only way my penny would be worth anything like that would be if it had been through a few auctions to get it noticed. Gary

There was a guy on the BBC this morning from the London Mint Office, that bastion of everything crap about commemorative coins I mean tokens, telling the public all about it and getting their web address in at least once in every sentence. I think they had got hold of some and were trying to pedal them for £50 each. Just look at ebay if you want one, there's usually dozens on there at any one time, going for anything from £10-£30. There's only an estimated 50-100 thousand of them so get one quick while you can. Gary

Yes that is both sides and I'm thinking slabbing it may increase it's value, the value of which I have no idea at present. Gary Gary, What's the story behind the existence of the double tailed penny? Was it made from two different dies. This seems likely as the two reverses are slightly different. If two dies were used then this could mean that there are two different minor varieties of the 1970 proof penny. The difference that I can see is in the pointing of the centre prong of the trident. On the left hand picture it seems to point directly to a bead, whereas on the right it seems to point to the right of the bead. Can you confirm this? If so, can anybody else confirm that there are two minor types of 1970 proof penny? That's interesting, I hadn't looked past it being a genuin error. The are no signs even under my works 20x microscope of any join either around the edge or inside the beading so I believe it's mint error. I will look closer at the pointing this evening when I get home. Gary

Yes that is both sides and I'm thinking slabbing it may increase it's value, the value of which I have no idea at present. Gary

I have been trying to decide if to have a bronze penny slabbed, one reason for my indecision is that I usually remove coins from their slabs when I recieve them. Another is the cost and practicallity of just slabbing one coin. Of cause the reason for contemplating slabbing is the possible enhancement in value.

Yes, I have all four types plus the two proofs and the Peck 2171 in my advatar. I thought my 3d collection was complete until about 3 weeks ago when Dave's varity book arrived. I then started looking for the sharp-edge 1949 which I came across at the Midland coin fair, the wallet is still in intensive care I also need to keep a look out for the 1967 minor variety. I have often wondered if there are two varieties of the 1953 proof as with the business strike. Just have got around to putting any effort into it. Gary

The 3d

Davies list for 1953 proofs two varieties of the halfcrown and shilling. I have had both varieties of the halfcrown for some time 2310 & 2311. Today I received the second variety of theScottish shilling so I now have both 2440 & 2441. Both the 2310 and 2440 are listed by Davies as unconfirmed. Another coin I received today which I wasn't aware of until receiving a copy of Dave book on varieties was a 1949 Brass 3d with the sharp edges. Peck lists this variety for1943 and 1948 but not 1949. Although a listed variety I believe it's not widely known and appears to be much scarser than the rounded edge variety.

Gary, This is a subject I brought up many years ago, when the Royal Mint ran a forum, but then closed it never to reopen when some idiot started posting all sorts of rubbish on it. I have a 1937 proof set, the coins of which I understand to be standard proofs i.e. polished finish all over and not cameoed (not sure if this is a word!). The crown in my set is exactly like this one, i.e. it has frosted devices, as has the Scottish shilling, unlike all the other coins. I tried getting an explanation for this, but opinion on the forum was divided over whether mine was a VIP proof or whether it was a fact that the early proofs were cameo and as the dies wore, the effect was gradually being lost. I don't personally buy this latter explanation but have never been able to figure why my set has a combination of two styles, unless, of course, it was a re-constituted one. However, this would still imply that the mint was producing both standard and cameo coins at the same time. Anybody got any ideas? DaveG38 Dave, My proof from a proof set is also frosted but by comparison to my PR67 which I beleive is a VIP, the frosting is not as distinct. Also little details are sharper such as the boarders around the shield. The proof has the occassional ding/roughness where as the VIP is perfect under the glass. The VIP books in Spink 2009 as £800 so I think the guy with the PR65 is being a tad over optimistic. Gary