1949threepence

Yep, it's the archetypal example of making sure you read the small print. A lousy trick designed to trip up the naive and unwary, but perfectly within the rules. Caveat Emptor.

The obverse toning on the first proof is superb. A thing of beauty.

You can still get a very good idea as to comparative overall circulation, eg: hair detail, extent of wear, rubbing of lettering etc, even if the actual coins you are looking to grade, don't appear in Derek's book. The basic principles are the same with all coins.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

On the basis of the pics, I'd go for GEF/aUNC. The reverse looks slightly better than the obverse. Nice coin.

Oh sure. Obviously there are coins which you could say without argument, are definitely mules, such as that Jersey Penny. As well as the overwhelming majority of coins, which aren't. The difficulty lies in the grey area in between, and it is that which we will probably never achieve total consensus in. As far as "intent", for me that would have to be officially sanctioned intent. If a die operative on the day inadvertently married up incompatible reverse and obverse dies, then you could argue that his intent was to use the correct dies, but due to a mistake on his part, an erroneous combination was used. The problem with this, of course, is that in most cases you won't know with absolute certainty whether it was a mistake at the sharp end (as it were), or an agreement deliberately arrived at, in the full knowledge of what dies were being used in combination. Another area of possible debate would be at what level an intentional decision was made to use incompatible dies. It could be made at operative, or foreman level where the intended die was broken, but to fulfill targets an incorrect one was used. In real life any number of possibilities rest as a potential, and the reasons will have been lost in the mists of time even by the following weeks of production, let alone 150 plus years later.

We all are.... Let's be honest, in the absence of an overriding definition accepted by all, there's never going to be full consensus on this issue, so, in terms of what is a mule and what isn't, to each his own.

That's a very sensible way to look at it.

Oh c'mon......we'll need to see the obverse before we can arrive at a consensus as to mule status or otherwise........ OK, I'll get me coat

This is almost as cryptic as "when is a door not a door?" - answer "when it's ajar". It literally hinges on how you define the word "intentional". When is intentional not intentional? When it was intended by the person on the day acting on an incorrect assumption or mistaken identity of the equipment being used.

Another interesting mule conundrum to ponder, is the F38 1862 penny. Given that by that point the de facto obverse for a number of years to come, was already established as obverse 6, could the use of the by that time, apparently discarded obverse 2, be considered as a mule? Was the use of obverse 2 a mistake by a production operative, or the intentional using up of old dies?

The 2008 undated 20p can reasonably be described as a mule, by virtue of the fact that it could never have been the intention to use an undated die. Indeed, it would never have been the intention to use that die at all unless the date was added - so.....on reflection is it another grey area? Just wondering about the 1862 penny using halfpenny dies? The die was meant to be used, but the numerals not.

Good point - similarly with the 1895 2mm and 1 mm trident. Is one of them a mule by such definition as Chards? At the end of the day, I suppose if some individuals want to think of the 1926 ME as a mule, then so be it. For me a mule can only be a pairing that was clearly never meant to be, and would have been avoided had the production operatives at the time, been on the ball. I'll go along with Freeman's definition of a mule at page 30 of his book (1985 & 2016 editions):-

If not mules 🐎

Not meaning to get into semantics, or indeed to appear pedantic, but for me if an obverse or reverse die were not meant to be paired together, then subsequently saying it was an intentional action is somewhat contradictory, since at that point they clearly were meant to be paired together, as the intention at that point was to do so. It may not have previously been the intention, but once it is accepted, even as a short term expedient, then they are clearly meant to be paired together. So in my humble opinion, the 1926 ME is not a mule. The 1860 beaded/toothed border is a mule, as this was much more likely to be a production error.

Incidentally, Richard, on your rarest pennies website for the F32, I think the one you recently added as Example 15, from the DNW auction of Sep 16 (now mine), is actually the same coin as example 9 in that list, sold in Sep 15 by Spink, as part of the Andy Scott collection, but a much better photograph than Spink's effort. Note the identical prominent gouge on the Queen's neck. I stand to be corrected, but I think it's the same coin.

Right, well in that case I'd go along with what Peck said. The 4G tablets are a lot more expensive for either apple or android, and using a mifi is extra cost on a monthly basis.

Has your Mum already got a wifi connection at home, John?

No, never. I've missed out badly. Music from the early 60's hardly ever gets a play, and from what I can recall, never has in my personal lifetime. Only very occasionally. I've been listening to a few more of their tracks on you tube. They were truly talented musicians. Better than the endless generic bilge we are subjected to now.

Heard this on the radio today - never heard it before - what a superb instrumental. From 1962, The Shadows, Wonderful Land:-

The Royal MInt do have an x-ray fluorescence spectrometer. It's one of the tests they used a couple of years ago on fake £2 coins in circulation, discovering that the metal mix was out of tolerance.

Well, it does sound very a interesting read, and based on your recommendation, Pete, I've ordered one off Amazon.

...er, yes, I suppose it is actually...Fair comment.

Much of the website concerns Russia, and indeed when you click on the one thing that does refer to coins, you get a website in cyrillic script, completely unconnected to coins.

Me too........