1949threepence

Well, thanks for this Paddy and for the thread, Madness. This was a subject about which I knew nothing. Wouldn't have even known what proclamation coins were. Certainly would never have guessed that coins from various lands were all used in Australia post 1800, and that each were allotted a different value. Perfect for collecting.

Agreed, Jerry. Mine would be:- 1/ Keep a sense of humour. 2/ Accept that others beside me have a right to their opinion. We're all different. 3/ I'm not always right. In fact there is usually no definitively right or wrong answer. Life is not 20 maths questions. 4/ Go in with the perspective that you can have a blazing row, but still emerge mates afterwards, shake hands and have that cyber pint together.Whatever's said in here, we leave it at the door and don't talk about it anywhere else. 5/ Never hold a grudge. It's not personal, it's politics. 6/ I'm a rottweiler

Similar to me Jerry. Marginally better than mine (which is example 15 in Richard's rarest pennies site for F32), but certainly not significantly enough to warrant me bidding.

and I'd say an above the average, problem free example, from the admittedly limited population, Pete. So a bit of a win win. Had I not already got one, and seen that, I might well have gone to £875, or even pushed the bidding higher.

I think it's an example of someone trying to make a fool out of a naive buyer. But even allowing for naivety, surely no-one would fall for this.

Fingerprints are, of course, common on lustred coins. I've got a couple myself and have often mused that whoever put the fingerprint there, will now be long dead. Or was it somebody in more recent times just handling the coin carelessly? Interesting article on coin fingerprinting

It's your call what you do with it, if anything. Just as it is your choice whatever else you choose to post on the topic. Unless you can present some credible evidence to support your assertions, my interest in the topic is now at an end. It was you who started the thread, Larry, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that your ideas will be cross examined and questioned. Better that, I'd imagine, than it being completely ignored. It's not my forum by the way, it's a common resource for the good of all of us. I have a probing, analytical mind and when a question is posed, I like to get to the bottom of it - as far as is possible at any rate. On this occasions I felt it was a good way forward to ask the RM for their view, or possible historical record, which I did in a wholly objective and unbiased way. Anyway, for better or worse we now know what their view of the matter is.

OK, so as I said in the thread on what your collection did for you last year , I did actually contact the Royal Mint about this issue, under an FoI request. Personally, I don't believe there are any underlying images deliberately placed underneath the main design of coins, but you never know. Stranger things have emerged, and it's always worth getting the official viewpoint. What I can't see is any logical reason for doing it, especially on what would have been, even then, low value items like pennies. We know there were contemporary counterfeits at the time, which would not have been difficult for the trained eye to spot. The other obvious question is what would be the point of implanting such subtle images if the public was unaware of them? Genuine question. Everybody has always known about images and marks placed in banknotes to make them difficult to fake, and before the modern designs, the silver strip - as a known deterrent. So why go to such lengths with pennies, in secret? Anyway, here is my enquiry, and their reply. The respondent does say that she can't say what the images might be without seeing the coins. So it may be worth @DrLarry sending some off for comment. I certainly don't see any other way of convincing many people of the idea's credence without some official nod in its direction.

The GF F32 on e bay recently went for £875. Not a bad price in all fairness.

Of course, die wear can manifest in all manner of different ways. For example, note the way the 9 on this 1891 penny tends to lack a tail and runs into nothing. That's pure die wear:-

Now got an 1897 O .N E penny (F147) courtesy of Bob @RLC35 I'd estimate at EF. Nice coin and another Freeman currency type box ticked.

This is what an EF reverse from that era should look like, big difference:-

In a sense, yes. For example certain coins in certain years are known to have die wear problem. I'll just take the 1906 penny as a prime example. The reverse of the 1906 has a reputation for die wear, and mine is no exception. It's otherwise EF with some residual lustre, but the reverse only looks fine in places, especially parts of Britannia. This is in addition to what Peck says above, which I totally agree with. Take a look:-

I agree Peck, that coin is AEF. There is too much remaining detail for it not to be. Distinguishing between die wear and actual wear on a coin surface is an art form in itself. By the way, go on, be a legend

I've just had a very interesting on line chat with a member of e bay's staff regarding fakes listed as souvenirs etc, and copied and pasted the transcript into a post on the Modern Replica coins thread.

Hidden away in the small print, at the bottom, under "item specifics" is the phrase "modern copy". Is that his get out clause?

Yeah, it's a Freeman 71, 7 + G. The lighthouse is wrong, and the helmet plume not tall enough for it to be reverse I. Maybe he's genuinely made a mistake due to the amount of wear. Possibly it was touted as reverse I when he bought it. Be interesting to see how many fall for it.

I do wonder, as far as the penny is concerned, whether the myriad complexities, subtle nuances, shading and wear types that we who are familiar with the genuine article know so well, will be just too much for the fakers. As a result they will never get one over on the experts.

Can I recommend the book "The Standard Guide to Grading British coins" by Derek Francis Allen. I've found this book invaluable over the years, when I've been slightly unsure as to a grade. Just looked and it is available on Amazon Australia, if you're interested, for $20.70 - link

One of my Dad's favourites of all time, Macarthur Park by Richard Harris from 1968, followed by one of my Favourites of all time, which I heard again today and was reminded, "Can you feel the love tonight", (1994) from The Lion King, sung by Elton John:-

He is exceptional, I must admit. If he really is attending and/or logging in to that many fairs and auctions, then fair play to the guy. That is dedication, especially given, as Martin says, English is obviously not his first language.

Cabinet wear - often called "cabinet friction" applies to coins kept in an unlined wooden coin cabinet for long periods of time. It typically manifests on coins in better states of preservation, by showing up as a slightly duller, perhaps vaguely shiny area, usually on the obverse, as most collectors store their coins reverse side up. I always used to think it was caused by the coins sliding about when you moved the cabinet, but apparently it really applies to inert coins just kept in the same position for protracted periods of time. There's a definition here I don't understand the last sentence of that explanation though, as we still keep coins in wooden cabinets. ETA: Happy to be corrected on any of the above. Like @Madness I'm also not 100% sure and am employing some inspired guesswork.

One thing's for sure. If I had been after it, and was the winner, I sure as hell wouldn't want it sent "£2.50 economy". Would have to be tracked next day delivery for an item of that rarity and value.

When you click on that link above, Richard, look for the blue line just above the new entry, where it says "The listing you’re looking for is no longer available. Check out this similar item we found for you." and click on the word "listing" - that will take you to the original F32 listing and result.

Should be on i player, Paddy. Easy enough to get if you're on virgin or sky, or even over the internet. You can just Google "BBC i player", and it comes up. Enter the name of the programme you want to watch in search, and voila .....in fact I'll take my own advice and watch it.....