1949threepence

Interesting thoughts. To be honest, who knows? Yes, he had a signature on obverse and reverse, although whether or not this was authorised, and if so by whom, is anybody's guess. Obviously, too, that signature moved about a bit - at one point, on the reverse, even moving to underneath Britannia's foot. We do know that on 4th August 1859, Gladstone, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, received parliamentary approval for the news smaller, thinner and lighter bronze coinage. Wyon started work on the designs immediately, which proved to be a far from easy task. Notwithstanding that, Gladstone expressed satisfaction with the design and appearance of some specimen coins that had been sent to him by the Master of the Mint, Thomas Graham. There was subsequently a debate regarding the obverse lettering, which was eventually settled on 21st May 1860. On 4th July 1860, Wyon records in his diary, "bad news today:- The Queen wishes the portrait on the new coins to be altered". Finally, on 6th August 1860, after modifications, Gladstone wrote to Graham saying that Her Majesty was now well satisfied with the modified designs. Wyon had his signature on the pattern pennies as well, which must have been seen by Her Majesty and her staff. I'm reasonably confident that if this had been something that was not allowed, or faced Royal disapproval, the signatures would have been noted by someone, the Queen consulted, and the signatures removed. Moreover, to what extent was Wyon involved in any modifications post initial minting of currency issues? Probably very little. Yet his signature continues to appear until finally the Obverse 6 Reverse G type becomes the accepted norm in 1861. Even then, it would still have appeared on the mule Freeman 38, with obverse 2, in 1862. What we don't know, of course, is why the signature was suddenly removed. Maybe in the subsequent absence of Leonard Wyon's influence, it was just thought unnecessary to continue including it. Again we will probably never know the true reason.

Indeed, they are not only infuriating, but also totally incomprehensible. Surely, surely, any organisational management with even half a brain, must know that confronting the public with such inane questions on an outgoing call, is going to wind them up, and accordingly arrange any outbound campaign to exclude any questions which might give rise to having to ask questions which require data protection laws to come into effect (GDPR now) Or write to them. Or arrange for all customers to have a reverse means of identification - eg: they have a password which they ask the caller of the organisation concerned to say before the call is proceeded with. Security is two way, not one.

Interesting....although my remark was totally tongue in cheek, Larry. Not meant to be taken literally. ETA - Although the bit about her liking slightly warmed up fillet streak, IS true

Or the other favourite now imprinted indelibly in my memory "calls may be recorded for training or monitoring purposes" "may" be. Either they are or they aren't, Why not just say calls are recorded. Then it should be manifestly obvious that if needs be, your call be subsequently listened to unless they've messed up the recording. Just give straight. easily comprehensible logical facts, and no ambiguous BS.

Mine might do that as a bribe for some cut up into small pieces of finest fillet steak, warmed for 15 seconds in the microwave. Anything less and she'd tell me to clear off, but not quite so politely.

Nice one Richard.

Great that the ATM was kept, but this whole call centre culture which has developed over the last 20 odd years, and emanating from local closures (not just of banks) has definitely led to a significant drop in customer service standards. 1) The caller is immediately confronted with an array of annoying options, the intentions of which are sometimes unclear or overlap. 2/ Often it's difficult to actually get through to an agent, as you are patently discouraged from going any further via references to their website/experiencing high call volumes etc. 3/ When you do get through it often seems to be to the wrong person, and /or they have difficulty understanding you and you them, as English is not their first language. 4/ If you complain you either get a completely nonsensical reply - literally !!! Or they just defend the indefensible. Apologies just don't happen these days.

Absolute highway robbery, and some naive sap fell for it. That is so obviously not a mule.

Christ Almighty, Richard, what a bloody frustrating time you've had of it. What with non receipt, wading through the robots you have to deal with subsequently, and then finding the coin had gone to somebody dishonest. It's enough to put you off trading abroad for life. I'd certainly never buy or sell anything from/to Italy - that's a cert, given their reputation. Nor the other places you mention. Although so far I've been lucky in buying coins from the USA, and two from Australia, which have always duly arrived without having been opened.

Not encountered him before, but his website is here Quality and price good, as far as I can tell..

I'm not iannich48, Richard, but your spare pennies website isn't letting me in. It prompts me for a username and password, but I don't think I ever had a password. Also, I've lost the link to your personal collection as I had an upgrade which has obliterated my old e mail account.

I've never heard of one, Richard. That one just looks a bit worn, which sometimes distorts true perception. Cue someone to now say they are known

A cashless society would certainly favour HMRC and others of a controlling nature who are desperate to keep tabs on us. It would mean we could never disappear for a few days or weeks living in a caravan somewhere, with a wad of cash to keep us going. Well we could do that, but we would leave a digital fingerprint with every item we bought and hence would be traceable. But I do wonder if international agreement would need to be reached before any country dares to take the ultimate plunge and go completely cashless.

To be honest - and call me thick if you like - I'm not entirely sure what you're driving at. Are you referring to random shapes which resemble something we know of (you mentioned animals) which might, for whatever reason, appeared on the surface of a coin. Or are you referring to some intentional underlying design, initially meant to be hidden (?) from the general public. If the former, I don't see any point in bothering. If the latter, explain more or clarify what you do mean.

If it's worth buying, Larry, it's worth spending.

Genuine F5 proof from the same collection:- Click Image to Zoom Back to Catalogue Lot Preview (More Information) To be Sold on: 19th & 20th September 2018 Estimate: £600 - £800 SAVE TO CABINET The Collection of Copper and Bronze British Coins Formed by the Late Hiram Brown (Part II) BRITISH COINS, Victoria (1837-1901), Proof Penny, 1860, dies Ca, in bronzed-copper on a heavy flan, beaded border, thin inner rim, lc wyon on truncation, vertical eyeline, edge plain, 10.59g/12h (Gouby CB; Bamford 169; F 5 [dies 1+A]; BMC 1622; Norweb 1732). Some obverse carbon spots, otherwise extremely fine, very rare £600-800

Well here's the reverse of mine, Pete. Spot the difference (apart from slightly fewer knocked off beads in the same vicinity)

It even looks as though it follows the typical pattern of a circulation F6, with some of the reverse beads being knocked off.

I agree with you Pete. I literally can't see anything to distinguish that coin from any equivalent currency strike.

How strong is the hobby in Australia, out of interest?

No Bob - dnw describe the variety as such for their upcoming auction. Thought maybe they knew something I didn't - link to item Click Image to Zoom Back to Catalogue Lot Preview (More Information) To be Sold on: 19th & 20th September 2018 Estimate: £300 - £400 ✔ SAVED IN YOUR CABINET! The Collection of Copper and Bronze British Coins Formed by the Late Hiram Brown (Part II) BRITISH COINS, Victoria (1837-1901), Penny, 1860, dies Dd, toothed borders, lc wyon on truncation, lcw below shield, n over sideways n in one (Gouby JA; Bamford –; F 10A; BMC 1629; S 3954). Light scuff in reverse field, about extremely fine, some original colour, streaky on obverse, very rare £300-400

I haven't seen the updated Freeman book, but I gather that the 1860 N over sideways N (Z) is now referred to as a Freeman 10A.

It was an outstanding find and in great condition for a reverse F, for a truly bargain price. So yes, very, very well played Jerry.

It was damned irritating.

Although collectors are still interested in really ancient coins, so no reason to suppose that pennies won't hold an interest for forthcoming generations. One thing to be very cheerful about is the fact that the internet has brought together the coin collecting community in a way that was never possible before. Pre internet we would often have been quite isolated, save for clubs in Cities.