1949threepence

No matter how it is dressed up, it is pyramid selling, it relies on additional layers of sellers beneath you for you to recoup your costs. The people at the top of the tree, and the odd good seller will make their fortune, and use the evidence to convince those further down to join. Inevitably it doesn't take that many layers before the numbers of people required to continue the pattern becomes mammoth. The last ones to hop on board have no chance of convincing others and the bubble bursts leaving them with products for which they have overpaid. The names may have changed but it is the same principles that have been used in previous schemes. That's what I was trying to say. I think "recoup your costs" could be replaced with "make real money" but otherwise you are spot on. It relies on you being emperor at the top of your own pyramid, raking in the commission from your 'subjects', while you yourself are in turn a vassal of someone higher up the tree than you, who is raking in even more. Like you said, a pyramid. A legal pyramid, but a pyramid all the same. You apparently get a $40 commission for each new member you can bring in. Which is presumably why Will was here touting for business.

lol ~ reminds me of the e mail I received "from the desk of Prince somebody or other of Nigeria", promising me $3 million for a £500 registration fee. He quoted a London address which, when I google earthed it, turned out to be a disused petrol station in Hendon Well from one 34 year old to another of similar age, I presume you will be taking advantage of this magnificent offer (for a small fee of course ) In the meatime, take a peek at their promo video on you tube ~ FÜ%k, quick, where do i sign up. This guy has converted me with his modified video and his bullshit spiel.............. here is is again spouting armageddon Yeah, worryingly, the same guy spouting that cobblers, is seen again telling us how to buy silver coinage with ISN. More reasons not to join it.

lol ~ reminds me of the e mail I received "from the desk of Prince somebody or other of Nigeria", promising me $3 million for a £500 registration fee. He quoted a London address which, when I google earthed it, turned out to be a disused petrol station in Hendon Well from one 34 year old to another of similar age, I presume you will be taking advantage of this magnificent offer (for a small fee of course ) In the meatime, take a peek at their promo video on you tube ~

Succinct and seconded by me. My bullshitometer is bleeping very loudly right now.

It really is very difficult to say, Mongo. This is trying to predict the market, and it doesn't matter how well informed you think you are, some unexpected factor or development will always take you by surprise. If I had to advise, I'd say rare gold in high grade. Very very true, Tom. When you look at your collection in its entirety, you realise the coins which have fallen into your lap as a relative gift, and the ones you know, sadly, you have been totally ripped off on, but didn't see it at the time, because you were being carried along on a wave of enthusiasm. With regard to upgrading, we all do that up to a point. But some coins in the collection become super attractive to you, and they are therefore "golden" in the sense that they become immune from changing to a higher grade.

I think Rendel Ingram's coins tend to be overpriced. Whereas Colin Cooke (Neil Paisley) is much more reasonable.

Some people just can't get their heads round the collector's psyche

Unable to comment on the 1975 5p, but get a bunch of 1992 10p's (very easy to find), and put them side by side. Then observe the different thicknesses.

Don't worry, I'm not a mason! What I'm saying is this. Unfettered opinion and genuine freedom of speech is being slowly but surely sidelined from mainstream communication and everyday life. This results in it being forced 'underground' and nowadays appearing on the nether reaches of the internet. The government is clearly not happy with this situation and has demonstrated every intention of wanting to police all such communication (witness the recent moves forcing ISPs to make data available). That's one step closer to allowing governments to open our mail, in my opinion. Whilst I most certainly don't agree with many opinions expressed, I will fight for the right to express them (to paraphrase Voltaire). You have in effect agreed with me. Why should we all have to 'sidestep' monitoring in everyday life. The UK is already the most surveilled country in the industrialised west, by the government's own admission. Ah, I see what you're saying. You're talking about the SOPA stuff (is that right acronym?). What you forget is this : if everyone who is worried about such stuff, whether or not they have anything to hide, set up several online identities, each one centred around a hotmail address containing fictional personal details, then anyone who was serious about monitoring us citizens would soon be chasing their tails. In actuality, if enough man hours were expended, such fake identities could be traced via injunctions served on ISPs (provided that the courts were presented with the evidence to furnish an injunction). However, this expenditure on man hours would entail more staff working on it than the entire Civil Service employs. For myself, I am endlessly grateful that the more limited effort that Government agencies expend, is to track down the activities of terrorists. Mike is quite correct. It only takes a little nous to sidestep a perceived lack of anonymity, and anyway the Government is neither interested nor has the resources to spy on the likes of us. As for people 35 or under, many hurl all their personal details into Facebook, so the lack of privacy there is self-inflicted and I have no sympathy with anyone who falls foul of scammers, government spies, or anyone else, if they don't have even the basic idea of personal discretion. I agree that may be true today, BUT the data is being collected and from more sources than most of us imagine (CCTV everywhere, Facebook, Twitter, border control, credit card use, mobile phone automatic tracking and use, Oyster cards for travel etc. etc. The list is almost endless and expanding daily). Whilst it would be impossible to provide enough manpower to collate and use most of this information it is inevitable that such work will eventually be undertaken by artificially intelligent computers. That really isn't science fiction! How long before a camera clocks you driving at 33mph on your way to the airport for a holiday and the passport check won't let you through customs until you pay the fine which appears on their screen? Or your Facebook account mentions support for the Freedom Party and you go on line to vote in the 2020 election but are automatically denied access for having unacceptable views? Every action generates a reaction ~ if the state starts using social media to the active and obvious detriment of its citizens, that is the time the vast majority will desert it in droves and revert back to the traditional means of communication, for all but the most banal crap. Actually facebook is mostly this already, as John alluded to.

Oh, that's awful. What a waste.

Agreed, Tom. I use my hotmail account for serious e mails, as I know I can always rely it to do exactly what it says on the tin. I can also pick them up on my phone. All the crap goes to my outlook express. I use this for online orders/general enquiries and I don't care who gets the address. There's no spam filter on it either. Not sure what BT do, but I would certainly be irritated by any spam filter that was beyond my personal control. My ISP is Virgin Media.

Thing is, who is making these decisions and giving the orders ? Privacy is still possible by communicating face to face or by ordinary letters/notes, all offline. It's not difficult to sidestep any monitoring if you use a bit of nous. Not that anybody would actually be interested in 99% of the drivel peddled via electronic communication. As for opinion, you're definitely right on that, Chris. The internet is full of opinions, many of them quite brutal.

EF - VF - GEF - Fair to near fine Would be my assessment

Yes, mine's a Peter Nichols mahogany cabinet. Very pleased with it too. Was actually made by him as well. Can thoroughly recommend.

Nevertheless, it's true. I've looked at it very closely, and I cannot see any fingerprints when the coin is held in hand ~ and I have extremely acute eyesight. Don't forget the pic is considerably enlarged. When unclicked on it is exactly the size of a penny (on my screen anyway), can you see any fingerprints then ? errr, no You mean they're actually in it ? Crikey I think you missed my joke there Mike - you were talking about a fingerprint that was invisible in hand ... oh, never mind. No, the Jocks aren't in it. That's the one advantage they have over us I'm missing pretty much everything today, Chris. The constant rain is addling my brain

Nevertheless, it's true. I've looked at it very closely, and I cannot see any fingerprints when the coin is held in hand ~ and I have extremely acute eyesight. Don't forget the pic is considerably enlarged. When unclicked on it is exactly the size of a penny (on my screen anyway), can you see any fingerprints then ? errr, no You mean they're actually in it ? Crikey

There are fingerprints on the reverse though, which will count against it. Let me have a go at that Rob! I need to practice... Is the finger print at the top left, between the head and the E? Yes, and also between the N & Y of penny, but they only show up on the photo. In hand they are completely invisible, even through a magnifying glass.

No worries, Mongo. Pleased you've found it helpful

There are fingerprints on the reverse though, which will count against it. Very minor, and they don't negate the point I'm making. Moreover, they're not visible to the naked eye.

About Fair for me too.

An example of a near unc coin with superb natural toning and smooth unblemished fields:- An example of an UNC coin where the reverse shows considerably subdued lustre, whilst the obverse is BU. Presumably a result of multi decadal storing in the same position:-

An example of an otherwise really nice coin being ruined by a huge and obtrusive carbon spot or other stain:-

To a great extent, grading is an art, but one which becomes almost instinctive second nature after you've been collecting for a time. That said, grading points to look for will differ from monarch to monarch and denomination to denomination. There will always be grading disagreements between numismatists, but as a rule, this will be no more than half a grade ~ eg: the difference between EF and GEF. It's far from an exact science. Also, dealers will usually up the grade to the higher acceptable limit when selling, yet be more critical on grading when they are buying coins from sellers. That's business, and you can't blame them for that. As others have pointed out, there is also the subjective "eye" appeal factor, which might mean that a lower grade coin will sell for more than a slightly higher grade coin, simply because it looks better, maybe with more even toning. Such things as carbon spots, edge knocks, lack of field smoothness and score marks, can adversely affect an otherwise superb coin, to a very significant extent. These will all differ in their severity. Some are hardly noticeable, whilst others hit you hard in the eye. Bit like blemishes on a person's face. Moreover, different parts of the coin will receive wear, depending on the individual coin. Although there are common areas of wear, such as hair detail, there is some variability within any given grade. Another factor that very often occurs, is that the obverse grade will be different to the reverse grade. Maybe the obverse is GEF and the reverse, just EF. In which case the coin might reasonably be described as GEF/EF. A final point to consider is lustre or lack of it. Generally, but not exclusively, if a coin has lustre it will be at least NEF or above. Nonetheless, it is eminently possible for a coin to have no visible lustre, yet still be classed as EF or above. I can thoroughly recommend Derek's book "Grading British coins", especially if you are collecting British coins. It's a really excellent publication and covers pretty much all aspects of grading for all the different milled coin types. I've found it very useful.

Same law as in the States - you can't melt coins that are or have been currency (though for pre-1816 it doesn't apply). It's not policed very thoughly though as far as I can tell. Witness the number of dealers advertising to buy pre-47 and pre-20 silver coins. Exactly ~ and in fairness, it would be exceedingly difficult to police. Was I dreaming, or was something posted on here a few months ago about the 1864 penny being rumoured to have gold in it ?

You're lucky, I've not seen one as yet.