1949threepence

A few years ago I went to buy some vinyl flooring for the bathroom; the rolls were 2 metre wide, but the carpet shop sold lengths by the yard! Crazy system, our kids are taught metric at school, but the real world exists in imperial The French ditched £sd (Livres, sols, et deniers) in 1800 and introduced the standard metre and kilogram The whole world (except ouselves and the Americans) uses metric in everyday life, and all science and engineering is now in SI units (no more Horse Power or Foot Poundals) So why do we insist on buying boiled ham in ounces? It is a crazy system, David, as we are neither one thing nor the other. At least the continentals and the Americans are unashamedly either metric or imperial. But I'll still stick to buying a quarter of ham at the deli

Also the fact that in terms of bronze issue, they were the longest running design by far, lasting for near 35 years. When you consider the nearest competition was the piffling 15 years of Geo V (1911-1926) and 11 years of Geo VI (1937-48), which are the longest running predecimal designs since (technically, the Eliz II design ran from 1954-1970, but effectively it's only a six year span), that's a hell of a long run. Plus of course, the mystery of getting that flat disc with perhaps a mere silhouette of Victoria on the obverse, and if you were lucky a CD on the reverse. Yet with all the rare varieties you scoured that date just in case! Pennies from 1895 seemed to occur more frequently in VG or even F, the same with Ed VII. Yes, of course, they ran for 34 years (35 separate years counting every year from 1860 to 1894 inclusive) with no breaks, widely varying mintages, and many different types/varieties. No wonder they are so collectable !!!

It's about NEF and has obviously spent a few decades resting in less than ideal conditions, but it would have been manna from heaven for me, just as it was to you at the time, David Yes, although money apart, we live in a rather strange hybrid imperial/metric mix world today in this country. I was taught fully in metric, but for many things, I think imperial, having been brought up with it at home, and so do most others. Who, for example, thinks of their own or others height and weight, in metres and kilograms ? Very few. Absurdly, traders are co-erced into quoting dual weights for food (it was very nearly metric only until the EU relented late on), whereas we still have road signs in yards. We also use miles not kilometres, and the size of TV screens are still quoted in inches.

Typical Daily Telegraph article of the 'things are never as good as they used to be' ilk. I would however tend to agree about the quality of design, but why he picks the humdrum 1902-27 halfcrown is beyond me. And as for retaining the old l.s.d. system? Do me a favour. Bit Colonel Blimpish, that article. I do love the Ed VII halfcrown reverse, especially seen in mint state. But ahead of the standing Britannia florin reverse? No way! As for working out how many twopenny-halfpenny bars can be bought for £5 4s 10d - pffft. I for one am glad we went to the decimal system. I have to say, that I found the article absolutely brilliant. Really enjoyed reading it, and appreciated the idiosyncratic style it was written in. This bit particularly fascinated me:- It must have been the thrill of a lifetime to receive a high grade bun in your change. As he said, most were flat discs, or well worn by the 1960's, but I suppose, just very occasionally, you'd get that odd really good example turning up, that you would probably have kept for life. I often wondered what it is about buns that makes them such a popular collecting target, and then it struck me that it might be the sheer length of time they were in circulation ~ and in considerable popular circulation at that. Well used coins, unlike the 1 & 2 p's of today. In circulation for over 100 years in some cases ~ so you could have received a "flat disc" 1861 and a 1961 penny in your change during the 60's. That might have lent them a certain unique charisma which remains to this day. As for exam questions in lsd, I did actually look up an old O level maths paper and had a go at it (maths was my favourite subject at school). From 1958 I think, it featured money type calculations, all in lsd obviously. I found myself converting all the sums to pennies, for ease of calculation, then re-converting them back to the higher denominations. Somewhat surprisingly, I don't recall any of the questions referring to half pennies or farthings. I managed the questions, and got them right, but in reality, I would have struggled for time to complete the paper in the allotted 2 hours. Either half of the paper, as they were split in two over separate days back then. No calculators either then, so I refrained from using one, and did everything long hand, For the lsd questions, calculators would only have been of limited use anyway.

Very interesting and thought provoking post by petition crown. There can be no doubt that a "perfect storm" of factors have recently combined to boost coins into another stratosphere of investment opportunity. Major and protracted global recession, deep economic gloom as well as increasing angst about inflation, have resulted in a dash for safety by those holding substantial but vulnerable non tangible assets. Usually these people will not be collectors with a significant aesthetic interest in coins, and indeed coins may only feature as the "precious metal" component of their portfolio. Nevertheless I am heartened by your assertion that the majority of those who start out as investors, do actually become collectors in the fullness of time. We cannot in any way discount the true collectors/dealers who, inspired by the obviously enhanced interest, will also up their own game and snatch opportunities which may be invisible to the wealthy, yet rookie, coin investor, by utilising long held acquired skills, just to show they can outwit them. This naturally leads on to the question of quality piece availabilty ~ just how many choice specimens are squirrelled away in private collections globally, never to see the light of day again, at any rate, probably not in our lifetimes. This has undoubtedly resulted in an ever increasing ratio of quality to price: hard to obtain BU or UNC items, being snapped up immediately at prices which show a steepening differential to even EF and below. In some cases all the choice specimens are already lost to buyer availability, although they almost certainly exist somewhere. Then there is something I had previously never given serious consideration to, namely an overspill of the US market into English coins, as their coins reach record prices, and ours are seen as an attractive alternative option. Again that will boost prices as demand for quality pieces is yet again lit from another angle. Finally there is the internet, which has brought together the entire numismatic community under one easily accessible, much less obscure, roof. This provides a high speed vehicle, in extremis, for investment cash. The additional delights of e bay are already very well documented, but as the art and hobby become ever more sophisticated, e bay is in my view, becoming slightly left behind. Already it is very apparent that fewer and fewer quality pieces are appearing there. Those that do are going for much higher prices. Concluding, the future looks both inspiring and depressing. For rich investors, trading in a league of their own, it's one of a few possible gateways to economic safety. For the less well off dealers and genuine collectors ~ who in all fairness are often one and the same ~ the outlook is one of much greater scarcity of quality resources, and therefore altogether more tenuous.

"Well it's toning Jim, but not as we know it" That is an absolutely hideous artifically induced abortion of an attempt at toning. Does the would be seller just not realise that you don't get toning on already well worn coins. Real toning on UNC and near UNC bronze is a smooth thing of utter beauty.

The fact you got a few of these in one trip to the shops should alert you to the fact they are NOT rare! If the coins are worn - as I suspect they will be, 26 years is a lifetime in a fast-wearing alloy like brass - then the ' will have worn away. It was never very deeply engraved. But if you're developing an interest in these kinds of coin, you could maybe look to get a collection of £1 coins from 1983 in mint condition. None of them are rare (ignore what people tell you about 1988! touching upon scarce maybe, but not rare). You could build up a collection at an average cost of around £2 per £1 coin. Hiya,thanks for the reply.I did try add a pic in the last post but dont think i attached it.Lol It doesnt look like it has worn away.Where the ' is suppose to be still has the lines running up the coin.Like the ' has never been there in the first place.Ive tried to upload pic again but it saying file to big. Yes, it's a 150k maximum per post. Can you reduce or compress the image and try again? One other possibility is that the coin is a forgery - one estimate is that as many as 5% of all £1 coins in circulation are fakes. Could be, although I've never seen a £1 coin forgery with a date as early as 1985. Talking about the 1985 £1.00 coin, many of them are showing very rubbed lettering, and the date is totally rubbed away on some. Easily the worst £1.00 coin in terms of low legend relief.

Sorry Dave, it's oversized and blurred. Can you scale down a bit ?

Indeed ~ like they won't have seen enough of them already prior to 1971. It would be a suffocatingly patronising and unintelligent gesture for someone's 99th birthday.

It does to a large extent, I agree. But I was alluding to those coins, and there do appear to be some, which simply do not seem to be available at very high grades, even if you were willing to pay almost any price. At any rate, if they are for sale, it is a very rare event. For example, ever tried finding a BU 1864 crosslet 4 penny ? Actually probably you wouldn't have done, Rob. But penny enthusiasts will know what I mean.

Pleased to hear that your collection is coming along. Keep up the good work

Yet it is precisely those very high 100% lustrous grades, Tom, which sell at a premium way above even GEF. Perfection commands its own elite audience, apparently....... ........That's if you can find them to buy, even at silly money........

Yeah, I bet you are, matey

Another problem with Royal Mail is the postie shoving recorded delivery items through the door without knocking to obtain a receipt. Just this week I had one. You can see a scan of it uploaded to imageshack here ~ none of the tabs have been removed. If I was a dishonest person I could easily claim legitimate non receipt. Just checked track and trace, and it says "try later" !!!

Even when I lived in Essex I tried to avoid going to London if I could. Although, the London fairs sound good, it's the thought of having to actually traverse the place that puts me off. The Midland is a nice trip for me as it's fairly local, and always civilized. Motor Cycle museum is a nice place.

Looks a good book. Thanks for the heads up on that one, David

I don't think it does, Gary. Obverse 1 & 2a do, but not obverse 2 for 1903. See Gouby's website.

Just looked at all my dates for this period, and I've noticed the extra part linear circle on my 1883, in exactly the same place. Not on any of the others though.

Having now been collecting bun pennies for well over a year, and over halfway through assembling my collection, I am struck by the fact that despite very few being more common than Freeman R4, and all either over or approaching 100 years at the time of withdrawal in 1971, it is still possible to obtain the majority quite easily, albeit expensively, in high grades. The same cannot be said of the 1926ME. A total of 4,498,519 pennies were minted in 1926, and the ME's were included in that figure. Whilst we don't know the exact separate ME mintage, we do know they are classed by Freeman as R5 ~ ie: no rarer than many buns, which from experience we know we can get in high grade without too much of a struggle. Yet, notwithstanding the fact that the 1926ME apparently has the same degree of rarity as many of the buns, it is a whole different ball game when it comes to getting one. They are difficult to obtain even at grades below fine, and virtually impossible at grades above VF. Nearly all the ones we see for sale are obviously those plucked from circulation in the late 1960's, with 40+ years of wear. I wondered if anybody had any theories regarding what I call the 1926ME paradox ~ paradoxically very difficult to find but with only an R5 rating. Why is it so tough to get a decent one, and just how many of the 4.5 million minted, actually were ME's ? I hope some of you are as intrigued as me about this enigmatic penny

Welcome James, and good luck with the metal detecting. Many penny enthusiasts here

Not quite what I said, Dave, if you look Be honest though. You're a dealer and collector ~ would you really want one of those in your collection tray amongst all the EF's and UNC's ? Or would you as soon sell it on to a specialist who really would appreciate it for what it was, very rare, but very worn out ?

It would definitely find a space in the buy as a bargain and sell on to buy something else in its place tray. But you're right, Dave, I wouldn't want to look at it every day. I'll leave that to someone else. "Tens of thousands" ?

My wife calls it coin collectors stoop. A drop of pain relief gel on Sunday evening is called for. & Colin they supply chairs for us farthing buffs so we can go through the 50p boxes whilst the Penny boys need their bankmanagers to OK some scummy worn "open 3" discs. There's one or two on here who'd be interested in those, Peter

I was going to attend the June show, but got stymied by a work related issue on the day. Hopefully will go to the September one.

Yes, unfortunately it's very common. I can only assume that it's a combination of micro variations in bedding size, coin size, and in the case of older albums, overuse caused by frequently getting the coin out to have a look at it. It's one of the reasons why I changed over from albums to a mahogany cabinet with trays.