1949threepence

I thought I read somewhere that they didn't release the 1972 to 1975 sets until 1976? Might have imagined it though.

Yes indeed, and thanks Ian. The one you sold be is a beauty. Out of interest, were the 4 you found on e bay advertised as F77's, or just as date types and you spotted that they were F77's (or a mixture of both)?

Indeed, how often do you see an F77 offered for sale? Next to never - and in high grade, never. Just checked LCA. They've offered 3 in the last 16 years, on a level with the F76, and none of them any great shakes, gradewise. Maybe also the F20 and the F25 deserve a shout for high grade specimens. Again, very few and far between. My F20 is GF and was not only the best I could get, but the only one I could get as I've not seen a better one offered in all these years. Similarly, the F25 - not desperately uncommon in low to mid grade, but a lustred specimen almost impossible to get. I was exceptionally fortunate to get one in February last year at the DNW Hiram Brown sale. Subdued lustre specimen, for which I paid £1200 hammer. The only other ones I've even seen with lustre are the Workman sale specimen, and the one in Richard's collection.

It is indeed - that 1879 narrow date is a truly choice item.

Yes, another unfashionable, unsung, scarce penny. One you hardly ever see advertised or mentioned. Another scarce penny is the F164A - and again, vanishingly rare in high grade. I think on here Terry and Gary have high grade examples.The rest of the known examples are good fine at best.

It's from the Tony Clayton website, courtesy of Martin Platt.

There you go Richard:- (It's not mine. I do have a lustrous one, from the Hiram Brown sale, but for whatever reason, can't find the pic of it at the moment, and don't have time this morning)

Although unfortunately Cope & Rayner don't go into too much detail on varieties, so 1879 is shown as date type only, as is 1875 (apart from 1875H). With 1864, however, we have a range from Scarce for a fair version of the plain 4 to Rarity 4 for "as struck". That disparity is even steeper for the crosslet 4, which ranges from Rare for a fair version, to Rarity 6 for an as struck.

Hmm...well it might be interesting to have a "rare in high grade" listing. I know you mentioned the 1879 narrow date earlier - that truly is rare in high grade. I've only ever seen 2 or 3 with lustre. Although not difficult even in mid grade.

and they're definitely F79's where the sea crosses the linear circle?

Here's a cropped version of mine, Richard.

Could you make a case for <25 extant, Richard? It's really difficult to know. Although from an academic point of view it would be interesting to see if, or how quickly, your database reached 25. As you say, there might well be duplicates in your count, as the same coins get sold and then resold. In which case the overall total could remain stubbornly low. Not a glamorous variety, and doesn't attract a lot of attention, but clearly the type is visible to the naked eye. Maybe a bit like the F38 in terms of demand.

After a bit of research, I'd say the F79 was very scarce, but not desperately rare. Just looked at LCA - they've auctioned about 7 since 2004, most of them in the EF+ category, but one about VF, and one sub fine. I can only see two sold by DNW, including the Laurie Bamford specimen. There were a number of 1879's, some in groups of other coins, and most flagged up as F82's. I gave up trying to find anything in Spink. One sold at the Alderley, not sure of price. Superb BU example sold at the Copthorne auction for £400 hammer and a streaky not nearly so nice specimen at the Workman sale for the same price. Apart from that, the average price for a high grade seems to be about £250 to £350.

Cheers Jerry. He certainly is. Was all ready to take a photoscape pic for him to put on there, when it arrived. Surprised there was only one other bidder. Just shows that rarity doesn't necessarily equate to demand.

Managed to get an 1854/3 penny for just £31. Bargain in my view, considering how scare they are. Many are touted as 4/3, but aren't. This one looks to be the real deal, however. link

Sorry to hear that. Yes. Looks as though he drew them himself and probably got the proportions wrong.

Is it the same chap, Paddy? Seriously? Is he still alive? I only ask as that article was 30 years ago. Yes, I noticed that Richard. I think it was a transposition error.

That's something mentioned in the March 1991 article by A.R.Alexander. I decided to photograph it and show here. It's not a brilliant copy of each page, but it it is readable.

Not ridiculous at all Ian. Over a 4 is as plausible a theory as any other number. Others think it's over a 9 (or the other way round) I think it will remain a mystery. KB coins has it as over a three - link

Not bad at all. I've noticed some of the scarce copper varieties don't actually command big sums. I managed to get one that was aEF from Nathan Smith for £40 last year. Considered it a bit of a bargain as you really don't see too many of them.

Do you mean this one Pete? It certainly has a bit within the loop. If so, it doubles with the Bramah 25c 8 over ?. MG himself still seems very doubtful that the 8/3 exists, whereas with Royal Mint 1970 endorsement and MG's subsequent Numismatic Circular conclusions, I think we can be confident that the 8/2 is a fact in being.

Right, agreed. So cutting to the chase then, do you have an example pic of what you consider to be an 8/3? Or does anybody. Thanks in advance.

Here is mine bought privately February 2017. You may already have it, but If you do happen to want a better pic, Richard, let me know and I'll photoscape it.

The question for me now, is that if there are both 58/2 and 58/3 separate varieties, and it seems likely there are, then how do you tell them apart? It won't be an easy 10 second job under the magnifier. The fact we've been agonising for so long over what was (possibly) once accepted as 58/3, may actually be 58/2, speaks volumes.