£400 for a Penny ?

Unsatisfying though it may be, you're never going to get a scientific solution to what is a moveable feast. Some people might want to collect die differences, after all, what's the difference between collecting wide or narrow dates and die numbers ? Why do some narrow/wide dates become 'known' and attract a premium and others dont ? I can only talk about pennies, but Freeman and Gouby didn't think they were of any great significance, seems there are powers at work who now want to highlight these die differences. I think a consensus in the coin community is fundamentally unobtainable, an oxymoron. There is no right or wrong, just as any values are estimates, it's not a precise pastime. I understand your desire for clarity, but.......

It's the same with everything that is moved by a middleman Scott. I've always kept tropical fish on and off and there's a certain type of South American Cichlid (stay with me) that attracts a lot of following. They used to be either Brown, Blue, Green or Heckel when I started keeping them 25 years ago. These days we are having them listed by the name of the river they were caught in, Rio Ica, Rio Abacaxis, Rio Madeira, Lago Tefe it goes on. Fact is, they are still the same bleedin fish they were 25 years ago, it's all the people with a vested interest in selling them for a premium that are new. And it's the same with coins. Or pretty much anything else which is traded. So and so school catchment area.....

Seems we might be heading that way anyway mate. Huge interest at the moment in date spacing and numeral form. Now I've typed that, makes me wonder if all the scary money for minor varities is coming from across the pond ?

No need to apologise Sir, with a mouth to brain connection like mine, I'm more than used to it. I don't get the 'rarity in poor grade' thing, although I am never going to sit in judgment on anyone's collecting theme. The reason I sometimes get a bit animated when someone pays £23,000 for a beaten up disc is the effect it can have on prices in general by association. There's a real upward pressure on pennies and I'm not massively happy about it, haven't been for a while, you may be able to deduce this from my moniker. So, if I get the chance to poo-poo the inflationary big men with the money, I take it. ESB Red ? a DANGEROUS beverage if ever there was one...

It is incomprehensible, to me anyway, how someone could pay these sums for these coins, the more so when one considers what else that money could buy. The only way I can rationalise it to myself, is to assume that there is an extremely wealthy individual at large who uses an agent to manage his money. Victorian bronze and copper have attracted interest as an 'alternative' asset class which has done very well recently and a small proportion of an extremely large portfolio has been allocated to bronze rarities on the advice of a coin dealer to the agent. I can't accept that a genuine collector would lavish these sums on coins in that condition who's rarity is unknown and to some eyes (mine) of very little interest. I don't think we're dealing with coin people here.

I can't see it happening. Surely the Nutter has barked, twitched and howled his last and it will go for a much saner hammer price. Like a tenner......

Hard to find one in worse condition I should have thought ? Lots of nice stuff in this auction. The Ed VII Florins (1330-1337) caught this penny collectors eye when they shouldn't have...

It's not anything to with the court case that HM Gov lost against some forgers in the 60/70's (?) is it ? As I recall, somebody (Turkish ?) started knocking out Sov's and HM Govt took them to court, but the ruling was that as HM Govt had stopped minting them, they technically weren't forgeries. The upshot was that they immediately resumed sovereign production. I don't know if this could date from that time ? Ah so, I find this - you'll have to scroll down about a metre to reach the article on the Sovereign fakes; http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/newsletter2.html Actually, this man is right in our area, anyone know him ? http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/index.html Is there a prize for site find of the day, I fancy my chances......

Use them as gaming tokens for card games - that's what I do with a large pot of 1967 pennies. Or, source one of those old one armed bandit slot machines that take pre decimal and set it up in the garage. May appreciate in value if you buy carefully. Or, take the view that £1.50 is £1.50 and stick it in your future purchases pot. (copper is @ $3.00 per pound so 2.2 x 3 = $6.6 so you're not being ripped off) Or, take them down the garden and use them as air gun targets. Endless options.....

Russ, take a breath my friend. If it is worth anything, it will take many months until you could be in a position to sell it. Az, I note, is slowly turning from poacher into gamekeeper (he used to be like this but has learned), I'd take his advice and slow down a bit ? I still don't think it is a '1' but others might and 'others' have money. Take it off ebay before you get a bid and go and have a stiff drink or lie down, whichever works best for you. I like to do both in the correct order Isn't it lovely, on such a perfect summers day, to see the last few pages of this topic emblazoned with burnished bronze ? Well done everyone. Rgds,

To my eyes Russ, that looks like the body of an I in every way similar to the next one, except that there seems to be a small inperfection at the top left which gives the suggestion of a 1 as you point out. Others may disagree, but to me that has no value at all, it's either die wear or an imperfection, I don't believe it to be an integral part of the design. As to it's market value, who knows in these odd times, someone could well be interested in it ?

Can you not get into quite serious trouble for forging current currency, replica or not ?

Tell you what my friend, it's rubbish. And our heads are not in the sand, they are in our books. Respect to all, as always.

For what my opinion is worth, I think those Anne's are ok. There is a balance to be struck - Red is right to say that most coins and most sellers are ok, it comes back to the ancient principle of Caveat Emptor again and again. Not disputing there are an increasing number of clever fakes, but sorting the wheat from the chaff is the essence of the hobby, always has been.

First impression is that it looks ok, but what is it and I'll get the books out. Shilling?

Do you not make use of the 'Preview post' function ? I always use this to check if I have made a cock of myself or not and then submit it after careful persual. Unfortunately, I sometimes wake up in the morning and find I still have.

Well, what else can you do ? One has to pass them on. I wonder how long we'll have to wait for the Royal Mint reaction ? Bi-metallic pound anyone ? Oh, or is that a Euro......

I'm guessing that's lead Tom ? Certainly not taking the contact with other coins very well by the looks of it.

Well, I'm not sure nitpicking is the right word, but I think they are pretty much on their own when they get to those heights, for most of us, 'proof' is good enough. Does Cameo not usually refer to what we call silver proof's ? In which case trying to grade those is ridiculous.

Stick 'em on anyway Russ, amazing things happen on ebay these days and it's a lot of fun watching what happens, as you well know. Let me know when you've put them up and I'll watch ? Rgds,

When I was about 17, I went on a skiing holiday to northern Italy, the Lira was in flames. I was in a supermarket buying whatever, and I handed the checkout girl a note and she just snorted at me and bunged about two handfulls of penny chews at me as my change. I didn't sit down afterwards and work out whether a Blackjack was worth more than a Rhubarb and Custard, although obviously, I should have done. None, however, were in UNC... As you suggest Farmer, I think away from the high street, all sorts of things go on. I have a mate who feeds his family off the back of an agreement with his local butcher of £1.50 a cleaned rabbit. The Scots notes were made 'optional' I believe because there were a lot of forgeries specifically targeted in England where folk were unfamiliar with them on a day to day basis, open season for the forger. The last £20 note lasted a very short time for different reasons and has now been replaced by a high tech version. On a non numismatic note, I recently renewed my passport - stuffed full of devices, watermarks and gawd knows what, quite a difference to the old one. Forgery is almost a legitimate industry now, like piracy.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe Mr Marsh has passed away, relatively recently ? So I'm guessing there won't be any upgrades for a while, although being the standard reference, I wouldn't be surprised if someone bought 'the franchise' Spink have a long history of re-issuing standard works of reference. Have you tried a non paper based diet on the Nipper ? Or failing that, increasing the texture of the feed, blotting paper perhaps......

Well that's good, perhaps in future you can change Nieve to Naive. X It's the end of my shift as spelling monitor, I'll hand over to another cardigan wearing, grumpy old bustard to peer over the top of his bi-focals for the remainder of the evening. Joke, by the way...

That's an interesting story. It's funny how nothing is ever new. Back in the days of hammered coinage, as you know, clipping was rife and frequent were the arguments, often leading to blows over the weight of specie offered in payment for goods at market. Call that a shilling, you.......

I think it is in fairness. Look, I can do it....