£400 for a Penny ?

It has never been proven that William III batted left handed, it is true that after (the lovely) Mary died he was patron to many young men at court, but this could easily have been and probably was harmless. It must also be remembered that, as Sylvester notes, many were interested in discrediting him, the more so if one was Catholic as he had deposed James II and was far from popular in Ireland in particular. He died, from complications following a fall from his horse caused by a molehill. Afterwards, the toast in Catholic circles was to 'the little gentleman in the velvet jacket'. His achievements rank, IMO right up there with Henry VII as one of Englands more effective Kings. Perhaps his standout achievement was that he brought the concept of Fixed Interest Securities or Bonds or Gilts with him from Holland, directly giving rise to Napoleons famous rant a century or so later about England being a nation of shopkeepers. He was miffed you see, that england could raise money through a bond issue whilst he had to travel around, cap in hand asking for contributions. It could be argued therefore that William was directly responsible for saving the world from French domination. Fine wines, haute cuisine, sensual women, efficient railways etc, etc - all those awful things..... Anne however, was an old bag.

Mate... How very ungallant to speak of a lady in such terms, the more so when she's not around to defend herself. She was also my Queen, I'm minded to challenge you to a duel. I do grudgingly concede that Anne was a bit of a Moose however....

C.R.Josset, in his book Money in Britain (Frederick Warne & Co Ltd, London 1962) has this to say about the 1860 recoinage; "This change, oddly enough, can be traced to the French Revolution. When the revolutionary mob tore down the church bells, they could find no market for the bell metal. Eventually it was sent to the Paris mint for conversion into money after copper had been added. The coins made from this alloy became popularly known as 'sous des clochers' (belfry halfpennies). A few years later Napoleon had much of this large accumulation melted down. As the supply dwindled more copper was added until a point was reached at which a workable mixture was found. This alloy was made legal in France in 1852 and was adopted by Great Britain and many other countries a few years later." I think this is circumstancial support for the argument that the change to bronze was planned from a long way out, perhaps explaining the mintage figures. It also reminds us how much people cared about the composition of their coins, unlike us today with our cupro nickel muck.

Very interesting. I know they did this with gold coins (to confirm they were 22 carat and the correct weight) did they do it with silver as well ? It just refers to the company of goldsmiths...

I'm assuming that's a pin from a clasp that I can see protruding. I take it there isn't any inscription/graffiti on the back ? The late victorians were very keen on jewellery of this nature, you encounter it a lot with campaign medals. Doesn't have to be military, but it probably does have a military connection, whether a soldier, or made as a 'sweetheart' brooch for a loved one. 1898 is Boer war time (almost) could have something to do with that - be interesting to know if any regiments were posted to south africa from India. My point really was, we need to exhaust all the theories as to what it might be before breaking it up, just in case it's worth more like that than as separate coins. As for what an 1898 two Annas is worth, I have almost no literature on British India and I have to say, I haven't seen much down the years either, which is a bit strange. I'll have a more determined look at the shelves this evening, but there must be someone out there who knows ?

Myself, I wouldn't rush to separate them until I knew what the significance of the configuration is and who did it and why, what is it's provenance ? It's probably nothing, but what if it was done by Kipling's son for example? Do you know ? Need to know what it is and where it's from before you can make any decisions to break it up IMO. SOMEONE went to the trouble of doing that, for SOME reason.

We're all guessing, but I'm going to speculate 3 factors are involved; 1. The powers that be had been planning this for a number of years, withdrawing copper from circulation, learning from the mistakes of previous recoinages they had been minting for several years in advance of 1860. This could explain why there are so many different dies around from that time - experimentation before launch. My point being that this was more organised and planned than any previous re-coinage - which have tended to be done under pressure. 2. The population wasn't so much expanding, more moving into the cities from the countryside. Folk who previously could have got by with very little coin since they lived in close knit rural communities where everyone knew each other, suddenly needed to be able to pay their way on demand to strangers on a daily basis. I'll give you a chicken on Friday, Bert, didn't work anymore. 3. In a way, it's a small movement toward token coinage, worthless metals are being introduced to improve the durability of the coin. OK, I know it's only 5% or so, but maybe it was felt that there would be resistance and that could be best overcome by making them so ubiquitous that people would have no choice but to accept them ? Maybe....

Can I ask what the scrap value of 1967 pennies is ? I use them for playing cards, can you get me some - ones on ebay are a bit ambitiously priced IMO ?

They will slab it without comment for a fiver I believe. Whether slabbing is good or not is an ongoing debate which we have on here about once every 3 months. For me, I believe the debate should be separated into two parts, the product and then the 'politics'. The product, well, you either like the presentation and the fact that you get a second, professional opinion, or you don't. That bit is quite simple I believe. The politics is where it gets more difficult. In the US slabbing is more established and some strange things have happened. For example, people buying a mint issue proof, slabbing it and then selling it for twice what they paid for it from the mint because it's graded MS67/68/69. Certainly I think slabbing is quite inflationary and that isn't good. I can see other dealers not being too enamoured with it as well for obvious reasons. It's a difficult one. Braver man than me Colin

Who is ever going to know you've done it ? I've sent two American graded pennies away to be re-slabbed in the UK, I haven't broken a slab myself. Unstorable Slabs Peck ? They do tailormade boxes that work superbly.

In general, taking a coin from a slab shouldn't affect it's value - not sure how easy it is to do though. Yes, you put that quite well, a slab is 'somewhat' a guarantee of condition, still leaves room for interpretation though, the authenticity is more solid ground, usually there is a full guarantee that it is what it says it is. There isn't a consensus of opinion regarding slabs, I think it fair to say that a significant number of forum users aren't keen, although I myself am. Back to personal choice again.

I don't know anything about scanners, but can they do this ? or this... It's been my best friend, my Nikon, I've got a 17 inch monitor and I can fill the screen with any part of the coin I want. It's so much better than a loupe with a bloodshot eye at one end and a shaking hand at the other.

I use a Nikon Coolpix 4100 - it's brilliant, although I am only ever succesful in natural light, flash photography doesn't work for me at all.

That made me smile. I do hope said Mat is still talking to us despite everything ?

You have: Baldwins in Adelphi Terrace - well worth a trip just to pick up all the latest catalogues. Don't expect a warm welcome however, it's somewhat stuffy to say the least. Shooting out of there, you could pop into Vera Trinder in Covent Garden - they mostly to accessories and supplies. Then, nip round to Charing Cross Road, there is a dealer (who's name escapes me) who majors in Gold coins. After that, see Phillip Cohen just around the corner and hussle on up to Coincraft opposite the British Museum. Then up Southampton Row to Spink and finish at the British Museum's RBS sponsored Coin gallery. I worked around there for 10 years, with hand on heart though, I'd go to Baldwins for the experience, visit Phillip Cohen who at least will talk to you and spend the rest of my time in the BM which is excellent.

Welcome back. 1. Depends what they are; Gold doesn't really matter, as long as they don't get scratched, Silver, Bronze and Copper need keeping away from moisture. Why ? well, a lot of the answer to that is how often you want to look at them. If you're going to get them out every week for a look, then you'll need to protect them to reflect the amount of use they are going to get. If you're going to send them to the bank vaults and only check them once a year, less so. I use a third party grading provider, AKA slabs quite a bit for milled coinage, acid free paper for hammered. A lot of folk on here come out in spots at the mention of slabs. Each to their own. 2. Again, depends what they are. The industry standard is Spink's annual catalogue, but this attempts to cover every coin which ultimately isn't possible. Every area has it's specialist publications. Recommendations ? Everything you can get - one can never read too much. 3. Depends how organised you are, and to a certain extent, on the above. Close up digital photography has made grading a fair bit easier IMO. Amazing what you can see on a photo that isn't apparent to (my) eye. Good idea I think to photo any coin of interest and play around in photoshop. I use a spreadsheet myself, it gets more and more complicated by the year... Ultimately, you get to choose. Unless Mat has his way.... X

A sunny windowsill works as well doesn't it Red ? Mind you, if you live where I do, there is no such thing. (south London) Want to borrow my metal detector ?

Interesting. Is it possible to show a side by side comparison with the other 'E' from 'PENNY' ?

Wow. Never heard of that before, is that for real ? Where can you buy it - Middle Earth ?

You're not offending anybody Mat, maybe your views are, but that's not the same thing - it's always important to remember to separate human beings, from human doings. I oppose your view that 'vulnerable' consumers need to be protected, I look at that as a licence to be lazy and not take responsibility for one's own actions. How does the saying go ? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. A healthy hobby needs a number of things; a regular flow of new blood (probably in this case provided by ebay), a network of dealers who are prepared to scour the ground for new items, stage fairs, auctions etc because it's worth their while and it's Aldermen, the experts. If we regulate, ebay will stop coins like they stopped replica bullets, Iron crosses etc, because it becomes a ballache for them. The dealers will deal in something else because it's easier and more lucrative. The Aldermen will retire to their villas in Tuscany, shaking their heads in disgust. And then we will have a very fair regulatory framework, but no hobby. Many governments have had a very close look at gold coins in particular. My position does get harder to defend when one starts to talk in terms of triple unites, rose ryals, Henry VIII sovereigns etc. And I believe I'm right in saying that the last time I bought a gold coin from a London dealer, he asked me for my address as he is obliged to file a return, so if you were desperate for some more rules, I wouldn't object to something being put in place for individual coins with a value in excess of £20K - hell, there might even be something for all I know. But leave the rest of us alone please ? Rob, re £450 for a penny - I was being mischievious - arbitrarily inflating my self worth, without reference to any material, simply because I can. Regards, as always.

Pretty odd 'blue bit' on the obverse ? Previously enamelled, now cleaned ?

By the way Rob, I'm £450 for a Penny now...

The thing is Mat, you've said yourself, there is no evidence that Spink behave in an underhand way. OK, you may have half a point, but if we did have regulation, who is going to pay for it ? Answer - all of us; dealers, auction houses and ultimately us collectors. As the new entity grew, it would become more and more expensive and to justify this, would suck in more and more of the independent talent that exists to drive up the quality of it's output and eventually we would have an organisation with the power to do exactly what you're saying Spink 'could do if they wanted to but aren't' And we would have built a monster to deal with a problem that isn't happening but could, theoretically. Ask the Banks how much fun that is, or the Merchant Navy, or Farmers..... NURSE, Bring me my wine early today.. Love and respect to all, as always.

Ooh, I can't resist. Surely one of the fundamental cornerstones of human society is caveat emptor ? 'Buyer beware'. In other words, the responsibility is firmly upon the purchaser to carefully assess his potential purchase and then, if happy, pull the trigger. After all, it's your money - you're not being forced to part with it, you're choosing to, so the consequences are your responsibility ? And, also, let's not lose sight of the fact that all regulators, in whatever walk of life, are ultimately self serving. The numismatic industry just isn't big enough to sustain a parasitic Quango. BUT, *p**k do take the **** and so do the others, the way they try and crack the prices on. The answer, though, isn't more regulation - it's more people taking responsibility for their own actions.

Innocent question - why so ?