£400 for a Penny ?

Yes, agree with that wholeheartedly. Overall, I think it's a good product and I use it frequently, BUT, I don't like this 'best known in population' business and certainly not the price tag that goes with it. Let's face it, in most cases the total population in slabs is very small, often less than 10, some of the prices one sees for 'best known' say an UNC85 is sometimes twice that for an UNC80. Most of that price premium seems to be because it's the 'best known'. What, out of 10 they've slabbed, I don't think I care. I have also found that they only reply to emails when they want to. Another slight irritation is that of provenance. They are quick enough to list a coin as being ex London coins, but it seems if a coin comes from another dealer's auction, it is not deemed worthy of note and the field is left blank. I think it's fair to say that there is a business plan in place. It is, however, a very stiff test of a coins grade and they seem to be very consistent. I mainly get my pennies from two sources, one invariably comes back graded lower than the other source. Whatever else you may feel about them, they don't overgrade.

Picture please...?

Nothing is outside their remit, they can celebrate anything. Being of a Nautical disposition, I discover that one of the conditions of the Royal Mail packet being allowed to moor off St Helena, is that a St Helenian is allowed to come aboard and sell coins and stamps to the passengers, minted by guess who...... I had a nice one a few years ago, crown sized with a pair of tropic birds on, can't remember which country 'sponsored' it, and of course there were those silver proof £1's with the ships on out of Jersey which were quite interesting, but aside from the occasional nice artwork, I'm going with the flow, I don't like them. Does the Westminster Collection, or whatever, still exist ? These things are not coins, they are items of jewellery when made from precious metal, and things for seeing how many times you can get them to skip across the duckpond when not.

Well, I think it's fairly clear that London Coins are trying to drive the market/prices along at a fairly rattling rate, and CGS are up in the mid 9,000's of coins slabbed and graded now, so I think it's fair to say they are having some success ? They also persuaded at least one person that a slender 3 is worth £19k. Obviously, as collectors we don't want high prices thank you very much, but as investors, well then I guess we do. It all depends whether we are collecting or investing. Also, as with much else in life, it is the people who take the long term view i.e 20 years + that are often the winners in the final analysis. There is much about collecting that one can't put a price on - the week long glow that comes with finding a copy of Freeman in mint condition in the back of a bookshop in Lewes for £2.50, the excitment as auction day approaches, the completely pointless enjoyment of gazing at a line of lustrous pennies with a glass of wine on the go, skipping downstairs to meet the postman who clearly has a jiffy bag in his hand... It's not all about money

Good man. No question though, like it, loathe it or don't care, third party grading is taking over, there's a reason for that

It seems to me that 'date variants' are very much in vogue at the moment. I submitted what I thought of as an entirely normal (nice, but normal) 1896 to a grader. It came back categorised as 'close 96'. Yes, ok, on further investigation, other '96' are further apart, but... Michael, on his webbo takes a 'not really interested' stance about date width variations - not to put words in his mouth, but it seems others see benefit in convincing us all that we should mortgage a child, for a thou of separation between numerals on hand altered dies. We know why of course, if the pit is seething with penny collectors with foam on their cheeks, it's all good news for the folk selling the pennies isn't it ? Overheated. I don't smoke anymore, sometimes I wish I did - there's a nice sunset here just now....

no need to laugh at the fellow for helping out is there ? Oh, look, grumpy again......

Well, thank you for your efforts on my behalf, seems I shall either have to wait for the new Gouby or get lucky on ebay. But do you know what - in the intervening time I've decided that I have my own definition of what is a variety and what isn't. Signature/no signature - very exciting. Rock/no rock, pepperpot lighthouse/skinny lighthouse - all good stuff. Trident pointing to a tooth/pointing to a space ? I'm glazing over... Someone referred to hyper varietals, I think i'll pass - the more so if they cost £19,000

Agree with that. There are lots of factors I think, particularly where pennies are concerned in the last decade or so; 1. Baby boomers reaching a stage of life where they have disposable income. 2. Disaffection with more traditional tax free savings vehicles 3. The price of gold rendering high end gold coins just too darn expensive, making investors look elsewhere for value 4. An increase in published material focussing on bronze/coppers 5. Several important collections reaching the auction room stimulating interest. 6. the ebay effect - a new collector is born every hour 7. The recent publicity generated by the mule 20p I found the Crocker biography interesting, in and out of pennies in under 5 years. Be interesting to know what the overall return on the 'portfolio' was over such a short time period. I think it's right to say that there are collectors and investors. I can see the investors losing interest over time as different markets take their turn to shine. That's bound to have a cooling effect, especially at the top end. I personally think £19,000 for a skinny 3 is very risky, how many people constitute the marketplace for that ? Can't be very many. Also, as has been said, At £19k, someone is going to 'find' another one, or two.... It's all interesting stuff though. Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

I haven't managed to find one. I phoned Spink earlier today, they don't have the book in stock, but I did manage to find an old thread on here which gives JJerrams address as: PO Box 63, Stockport, Cheshire, SK4 5BU That's as far as I have got.....

That's what I wanted to know ! Thanks very much.

Interesting, thanks. In reality though, as we well know, there won't be a strategy. The collection will evolve according to what's available when there is free money to be allocated to it.

Oh yes. Having spent 10 minutes going boss eyed staring at the two, I think, if anything, your '2' is even further to the right in relation to Britannia's gown than the CC one ? £25 well spent then.

OK, Gary, I give up. I see the double striking of the inner leg, but even with that the tide is well below the point the legs meet is it not ? Or am I missing something as usual.....

'Tis mainly for this reason that I have stayed out of them so far. The time is fast approaching though when I must get out my Freeman/Gouby etc, sit down and work out exactly what it is I am going to try to achieve with the series. I guess the ultimate goal, some way down the line is to 'do a Crocker' and auction them off. Maybe plod along for 20 years accumulating the best example of each year that I can find and then add a few 'funky' pieces towards the end to add spice/interest. Or maybe I'll get one of my kids interested, who knows. Lets see. 1860-1894 = 35 pieces. Average of £180 in UNC with lustre ? Maybe £200 = £7,000, that's not as bad as I thought. Mr Crocker did well accumulating all that lot in just 5 years didn't he, must have been at it nearly full time. Anyone have any alternative bun head collecting themes ?

Yes. I'm trying to accumulate a specimen from each year 1860-1936 in uncirculated with as much lustre as possible. I have been struggling with 1915 & 1916, so I picked those up and whilst I was at it, the 1919 is better than the one I have so I had that too. I got beaten off the nice 1898, which is a shame because it was very nice - would have had to pay £80 to stay in. In hand, the 1915 will probably do I would have thought, but would be surprised if a better 1916 doesn't come along some day, somebody somewhere must have them all. The 1919 is nice, pleased with it. Not many 'easy' ones left now, then it's into the H's, KN's, Low Tides, Modified Effigies and the Bun Heads My wallet can't wait. Interesting collection I thought, enjoyed it, very glad I'm not on the bunheads yet, could've got nasty - there were some crackers in there. Coin of the sale for me ? Lot 132 - not surprised it went for £350, it has everything, Low Tide, condition and a spacey date. Interesting that Lot 38 went for it's low estimate. I wonder precisely how many people are in the market for a variation at that price ? A handfull around the world ?

Not bad. Might've been tempted if I hadn't just blown my gaffe out on pieces from the Crocker Collection. Feeling a bit sore in the wallet still - but hey, I'm sure it will pass

Planning something ? Just back from a weeks training in Portsmouth. I live in South London and record the £1's that ordinarily pass through my hands. I've noted that the 'Bridge' series is quite rare around here, but in Pompey they were everywhere. Interesting town numismatically, Portsmouth - probably doesn't think of itself as such, but lots of people work there in the week and go home to say Liverpool or Glasgow at the weekends, so one encounters the full breadth of distribution. Still no fake for me though, some Gibraltar coins, but no fakes. I'm told they are centred in Scotland and Northern Ireland, maybe that's why ? I now have the 2009 5p from the Co-Op on Portsmouth Hard. Scanning this thread, I think I'm right in saying that's 1p, 5p and 10p out of their wrappers, any reports of anything else ?

A rare day. Not one, but two 2009 10p pieces and a 1998 Gibraltar 10p in my change this lunchtime.

In fairness to UK dealers, I think they just use PVC for posting coins out, not long term storage. As you mentioned, it is soft and probably provides the best protection in transit amongst all the alternatives. This is my experience anyhow. Rgds.

Another 2009 penny in my change along with a pint of bitter in the Bullfinch. Are they filtering down from the big retailers now ?

Only ever had two problems: One from San Fransisco never turned up and the other, sent by me, was opened in the postal system somewhere and the coin stolen. The packet was delivered to the Isle of Wight with all the stickers and tracking data removed, so it was definitely an inside job. Bit naughty. Oh, and now I mention it, a package from Australia was opened and one coin was missing, but that could have fallen out. In the last 10 years, I reckon I've sent or received around 1000 items, so 3 problems is pretty good really ? The stupidest thing I've seen was someone sent me a Krugerrand in one of those A3 flimsy plastic envelopes you get from the PO. Just a Kruger, no packing, nothing. A 3 year old child could have told you what it was - at the time it was worth about £400. I got it though, no-one opened it.

Seeing Gary's post on adding his 1926 ME to his insurance has made me think - because I don't have any and haven't ever really thought about it. what does everyone else do ?

Very nice chaps. Gary's post about insurance has interested me, I think I might start another topic....

Well, I guess again that it has oxidised in a certain way as to give off the silvery colour to which you refer. May be a result of the composition of the alloy, or it may have been in contact with something else which has 'contributed' to the reaction. I suppose given it's 1940, it's not impossible that the mint were experimenting with composition/treatment - as you know, the next few issues get the 'Hypo' treatment. Any chance of a pic ?