Peckris

I'd say somewhere not much more than VF too Dave. Interestingly I found this, on the Sheldon scale, in particular how Sheldon determined the method by which values are assigned to numerical grades : "The condition census is 70-70-65-65-65-65. For the 65 coins, we apply rule number 10 which says to apply rule number 8 to the first 65, and rule number 9 to the other three, average the results, multiply by the numerical grade, and multiply that result by the basal value." The writer adds, ironically but probably unnecessarily: "Everybody got that?"

I can't afford to collect patterns, but if they are recognisably different from the currency design, they would occupy a separate tray in my collection. As would trials, but not necessarily misstrikes (which I don't actually collect either). I actually have a separate tray for particular rarities too (mainly for inclusion of explanatory tickets, and to ensure my inheritors can dispose of them for what they are); they include pennies such as 1903 open 3, 1911 Gouby X, 1915 'recessed ear', 1966 'tidal wave', 1915 'TT' farthing, among others - all things which even experienced dealers can miss. It would be tragic if whoever inherits the collection misses out on a portion of its value through simple ignorance of both seller and buyer.

I note there are 5 pictures of the obverse (which isn't as worn), but only 1 of the reverse - at an angle, and in the slab. It's been cleaned too, fairly obviously. Some fool has been parted from his money, and that's no part of a TPG argument brg5658 : it's a fact. Your EF example is rather conservatively graded IMO Rob, but the point is well made.

Interesting theory! Mind you, I was already interested and looking feverishly through bank bags in the late 60s when I discovered a GVF 1909 halfpenny, an ABU 1938 halfpenny, and an EF 1935 halfpenny. I have always wondered how they got into circulation. Although they are not common, its still possible to find early (1971) 1p and 2p pieces in change in EF-UNC condition. I found several when I was looking at the portcullis designs of the 1p coins last year. Those coins would now be 42 years old, so turn the clock back to 1967 say, and that means there's a good chance of finding a EF-UNC penny or halfpenny going back to 1925. OK, 1909 is pushing it, but I can see why some nice condition coins could have been found. That's easy to explain : millions of early decimals were set aside in speculation that as the first year(s) they would someday be worth a premium; over time, as that hope has died, people would naturally offload their useless coppers into circulation. Oh I'd agree about 1971 coins. They were the commonest of the older EF-UNC coins I found, but there were still quite a number of slightly later dates, including the early 1980s. I guess some might come from coin jars being emptied out, but I still found it not so unusual to find top condition coins in change back in the £sd era. There were certain repetitive finds : in 1968-69 it certainly wasn't unusual to find 1958, 1959 and 1964 halfpennies virtually BU, nor 1959 sixpences, nor shillings of virtually all dates back to the early 60s, etc. Also 1949 pennies with lustre would turn up fairly frequently, but there were no BU halfcrowns pre-1966, nor any of the 1950s cupro-nickel long considered difficult, and those three halfpennies I mentioned were definitely unusual finds.

Apparently Nigel Farage has promised to purge UKIP of members with extreme or sensational opinions - presumably he will start with himself?

Is it just me, or is the Greek spelling LYKK ?

That's a beauty! Yours?

I think the same applies to the 'bright' 1918? I've always considered that - along with the 1919 - as relatively common, so £20/£30 in Unc seems a tad over-optimistic : the £10/£15 of the other dates seems more like it?

I'm afraid that question opens an entire can of worms. I for one, have always collected coins for their historic interest but also their individual beauty (the latter being the paramount reason that has grown over the years). In earlier days - like when I started as a schoolboy - I was interested in 'completion', as in date runs. I still value the completeness of my bronze pennies but have to draw a line over certain rarities and micro varieties, the former being beyond my reach and the latter beyond my interest. I do suspect that the 'number chasers' are little more than the numismatic equivalent of trainspotters with money to spend, fuelling their mild Asperger's Syndrome at the expense of common sense and a grasp of what coin collecting has traditionally been all about. However, I cannot sit here and deny that following the value of my own collection has been important to me. I've even become a bit of a student of changing UK values over the years from the 1960s onwards, and I do recognise that like any investment 'the values can both fall and rise'. I was a beginner in the late 1960s and saw for myself at first hand how a 'bubble' is created which then has to burst later when more realistic market forces take over. In that sense, I agree that collectors are also investors, but the true collector is in coins for what they mean, not simply as an engine for financial growth, to be disposed of without a qualm when needs must. You used fewer words, but we're both singing from the same hymnsheet. We both know there are good and bad TPGs just as we know there are good and bad graders amongst individuals. As said before, this is always going to be a subjective matter. The standards used by NGC and PCGS differ wildly from the guy who trades as centisles(?) for example. You can't stop the latter, because we live in a world where his opinion is his right, and his right to carry on a legitimate business within the law is undeniable. All that matters is that he is consistent. Even the individual TPGs have variable standards for the same type within their own setup, otherwise you would never be able to resubmit until the grade you wanted was obtained. And what about the slabbed dodgy ones? I know of quite a few doctored coins in slabs, or even the odd fake or two.Would I sell my collection slabbed by a US TPG? Probably not. Ancient coinage has vitually all come out of the ground. Therefore cleaned and by default 'xx details, cleaned' if the rules are consistently applied. Most of the time their hammered grading is best avoided and the vagaries of hammered coins don't lend themselves to a consistent numbering system. It boils down to whether I believe the results would be beneficial. That's a definite maybe, maybe not. Given I threw out a coin last year because of the wear which was promptly graded MS66 by NGC , yet Steve has just bought a wonderfully undergraded PF62 penny leads me to think it would be a mixed bag, even for the milled. I agree - there are books to help the novice grader, Derek's being the outstanding example for British coins, and I believe there has been an American equivalent too? There was an individual who had an advert on a prominent page in the leading UK magazines for a long long time, and his grading was always a grade too high; but I suppose - as Rob says - at least he was consistent. The problem there is, if that dealer was someone's prime source, they would end up sitting on a collection that was inferior to what they believed it to be from the description of what they were sold. TPG's will sink or swim by their consistency. If they don't agree with each other, or vary even within their own grading, then the bubble they have created will - or should, if commonsense still exists - eventually burst.

That's an absolute beauty, and I'd be quite happy to shell out £115 for something like that. You're not going to tell me of course, but what was your source?

I'd go with GEF and value it between £175 and £200? (Based on the valuations given above).

It's a shame his "excellent collation" doesn't include to collation of decent information. It's certainly the 'high tide' variety (P of PENNY to gap, F-148), but it would be a disappointing example if you couldn't actually see the sea. The rare toothed beaded border variety!! Wow. I've heard about this mythical hybrid for a long long time, but I never thought I'd ever see one! In EF too (well, EF according to the Kazakhstan Borat system of grading..). My day is now complete.

Interesting theory! Mind you, I was already interested and looking feverishly through bank bags in the late 60s when I discovered a GVF 1909 halfpenny, an ABU 1938 halfpenny, and an EF 1935 halfpenny. I have always wondered how they got into circulation. Although they are not common, its still possible to find early (1971) 1p and 2p pieces in change in EF-UNC condition. I found several when I was looking at the portcullis designs of the 1p coins last year. Those coins would now be 42 years old, so turn the clock back to 1967 say, and that means there's a good chance of finding a EF-UNC penny or halfpenny going back to 1925. OK, 1909 is pushing it, but I can see why some nice condition coins could have been found. That's easy to explain : millions of early decimals were set aside in speculation that as the first year(s) they would someday be worth a premium; over time, as that hope has died, people would naturally offload their useless coppers into circulation.

I've been to CGS's website and heard from members here who've used them, so if I wanted a slabber, they'd be my choice. I've heard too many bad stories about NGC to place them anywhere but last. The bottom line though, is that I'd only use a TPG if they offered an authentication & grading service WITHOUT also entombing the coin.

Interesting theory! Mind you, I was already interested and looking feverishly through bank bags in the late 60s when I discovered a GVF 1909 halfpenny, an ABU 1938 halfpenny, and an EF 1935 halfpenny. I have always wondered how they got into circulation.

Rob, that's hilarious! Tom - I think it might be something to do with having made 'genuine' registrations on actual websites, that Indian user can be converted into a bot for use wherever bots get used? Something to do with 'web presence'. But I don't really know.

Boulton restrikes? Hmm, those - and the history behind the said Taylor - are worthy of a book in their own right. But I thought we were talking about the Royal Mint? So Taylor restrikes, by definition, wouldn't count.

But history is covered with created rarities, take the Wreath crowns, VIP mintage etc. You can't really call either of those 'created rarities' - the Wreath crowns were produced on demand (following the 1927 proof set) as they were popular among collectors and weren't available in any other form, and the VIP sets were produced for special occasions or particular dignitaries, not to sell. I can't think of a single pre-decimal 'created rarity' as such?

Nice find! As to how it got into circulation, it's anyone's guess. One thing you can rule out though - despite having a face value one tenth of a 1p, its metal value is greater, and its numismatic value is incomparably higher so anyone thinking they were 'pulling a fast one', must have been a right plonker. Unless someone was desperate to use a public loo and this was all they could find? Nah, the days when one pee = 1p are long gone, now it's 20p.

If a spammer, then the bots are getting even more intelligent - making up usernames that have some relevance to the forum in question!

Hi, and Welcome to the forum

Don't encourage them!

... apart of course from those who saw tanners up until 1980, shillings up until 1990, and florins up until 1992 - not to mention the odd halfpenny being palmed for a 2p! ??????? :lol: :lol: That is NOT a halfpenny - it's a half pee (you know, the thing you have when you've been in Yates's and you're half pissed )

There's even a milk dispenser, though you would have to look very close to see it. (I didn't, of course ). Mind you, you could suffer a nasty injury being impaled on her nose trying to get to it.

You mean ... the £700 I just paid for one ISN'T a bargain after all? If it's the one with the toothed border penny, it's a steal! :)Hahaha - yes, that's on my wish list, along with a 1954 penny, 1920 2nd obverse, and maybe a 1933 (though they are common compared with those others )