Beebman

In the late 60s my Dad had a shop and he would let me go through the till to see if I could find anything of interest. I found a number of Bun pennies. mostly very worn with the only decent one dated 1892. The oldest was dated 1860 but only the exergue wasn't completely worn. There were plenty of Old Head pennies but very few halfpennies although I did find two with dates of 1895 and 1897. The only pre-1920 silver I found was a 1919 shilling. (I still have all those coins.) Foreign coins would often crop up and I found a few oddities including examples from Singapore, NZ and the UAE. The oldest coins I found (and still have) are a 1906 US Indian Head Penny, an 1899 Argentinian 10 Centavos and an 1875 German 10 Pfennigs.

I also found about half a dozen bun penny washers in the late 1960s (which I still have), all but one with a readable date, the oldest being from 1860 which was completely worn flat apart from the exergue. I did however find an 1892 penny which I'd rate as Fair as all lettering was visible. My Dad owned a shop at the time and he let me look through the tills to find anything of interest which I could swap with my pocket money, and I possibly found some of those pennies there. However I don't remember finding much of interest. I was partcularly looking for pre-1920 silver but all I found was a 1919 shilling which again I still have. I do remember though that was lots of 1920s silver at the time including half-crowns, and many Old Head pennies but only the very occasional (and very worn) OH halfpenny.

There appears to be a missing colon after 'F:D' as far as I can see?

1871 narrow date??? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Victoria-Penny-1871-curious-piece-A060-/140557073222?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item20b9dabb46 Methinks the second 1 in the date looks a little strange...

From the condition of those offered for sale, it's absolutely clear that a fair few entered general circulation, so I did wonder if it was possible that some had been sent to banks in various parts of the country. Apparently not. Oh right. I've always assumed that a decent proportion of those million plus plastic sets got opened and raided. Funnily enough, the only penny from the 1950s I found a schoolboy 'bank bag checker' in the late 60s, was a solitary 1953 in AVF. I found a 1953 penny in GVF with lustre traces (which I still have) in the change from the milkman sometime circa 1969, so yes some did get into circulation.

I recall reading somewhere that in the 1950s there was an urgent need to supply the USA with silver bullion in order to repay the debt from WW2, so silver coins were quite rapidly withdrawn from currency to be melted down for this supply.

I've just done a little research and I've found that the 'famous' 1954 penny was sold in the USA in 1967 for about £10,000 and then again by Spinks in November 1991 for £23,100. Is the British Museum one a second example, or is it a proof one like the 1952 penny?

I was right at the front end working the till in my Dad's shop on the actual day. Lot of confused pensioners who just trusted what you gave them. Being young, it never really bothered me - I used to have more trouble with Quadruple Green Shield stamps My Dad had a shop too and he got the new bronze coins in advance from the bank to use as a float for change. He gave me 5 new pennies to pay in at school as part of my dinner money. When I gave them to the teacher he shook my hand and announced to the class that I was the first person to pay him in the new money!

Ever so slightly out-of-focus... 1858 penny

I agree, Peck. The actual price of copper might have a knock on effect with the bulk sale of low grade coins en masse, from any era. It would not explain the current craze for buns. However, apart from the very rare examples, like the 1869, 1875H, and to a lesser extent 1864 crosslet 4 and 1871, collectors are pushing strongly for the very high grades, which have a premium on them orders of magnitude greater than their pro rata value to lower grade examples would indicate. Maybe that's due to their increasing scarcity as more and more find their way into private collections and therefore permanently or semi permanently withdrawn from trade. You could argue that has always been the case, so maybe there is some other factor at work which we can only speculate on ~ or a combination of 2 factors only one of which we can readily indentify. That's a good point. I wonder if the same fever has extended to the commoner dates in high grade, i.e. 1887 - 1893 - anyone noticed? About 15 months ago I managed to win on eBay a 1893 penny with 90% lustre for £77. Recently one with about 20% lustre and some wear on high areas went for £141. Currently there's one with reasonably good lustre but a dark blotch on the obverse being offered for £165 and another similar one but this time with some verdigris spots on the reverse being offered for £225.

I see there's an interesting 1861 Penny on eBay tonight, it has a rather oddly spaced date although I'm sure the main interest is that it's an F24 (4+F), Freeman rarity R17 and Gouby rarity R8 (he suggests a value of £750 in F). 1861 F24 on eBay

I reckon there was a H there, light patches below and between the 8 and 7 where we all know the H should be, Here's another 1876 no-H with clearer pictures this time: 1876 Penny no-H

must have been happy then! Well here's my theory. I reckon that classic british coins is actually shill bidding as he knows people with deep pockets, hence the fact all his auctions are now private, why else would a coin with a value of only 850 be now at double book price, it makes no sense and isn't an ultra rare coin, just my theory anyway If you study Britannia's shield closely there appears to be nothing in the top left or bottom right quadrants - but is it just some sort of weak strike?

Brilliant exercise Declan! It's late in the evening for me so I will study this at greater leisure. But as you say, the number of 1904 halfcrowns, compared to 1906/08/10, is positively alarming. When I had a go at collecting a complete run of Edward VII Florins I found that the most difficult date to obtain in good quality was 1909 so that would correspond with this survey.

I've just checked the LCA website for Monday's auction and the 1882 no-H went for £9500!

I've just noticed that London Coins have in their forthcoming December auction a slabbed (CGS EF60) 1882 'no-H' Penny. ("this piece was purchased for £450 in the eighties from Spinks.") Guide price is £2500-5000. Link to the sale is below (the 1882 Penny is Lot 2055): http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/index.php?page=Catalogue

I've bought from him in the past, he often has good bronze for sale. Meanwhile this 1875 non-H narrow date (F80) penny has appeared on eBay, very nice coin yes, but a starting price of £380??? Link Fantastic coin, but as you say Beebman, the starting bid is perhaps too highly pitched. He's probably hoping to pique someone's interest sufficient to make the only bid at that level. Mind, you don't often see pennies before about 1880 in that good a state. Pretty much full lustre. Very desirable specimen. The same seller now has an EF 1865/3 for the eye-watering start price of £840: Link

I've bought from him in the past, he often has good bronze for sale. Meanwhile this 1875 non-H narrow date (F80) penny has appeared on eBay, very nice coin yes, but a starting price of £380??? Link

Part 2 appears to be on display from the top link under the 'Collections' tab of the CCC website, or am I jumping the gun?

No idea, but here's a link to the DNW auction archive page showing the Bamford one: http://www.dnw.co.uk/coins/auctionarchive/searchcataloguearchive/itemdetail.lasso?itemid=74545 Meanwhile I've done a little more searching in the Times database to see if I can find out if anything caused problems for the Mint's production in 1876 and according to the following paragraph from an article dated Thursday, July 5th, 1877, it would appear that something did: "The total value of the coinage effected at the Royal Mint during the past year has been of a comparatively small amount, owing to an accident which occurred there in July of last year, by which the first motion wheel was completely shattered; and it became necessary, in consequence, to suspend the coinage for a period of nearly five months. Had such a serious breakdown occurred at a time of urgent need of a rapid increase of the coinage, great public inconvenience might have resulted; and this accident affords clear necessity of the Government giving the Mint what has been so long urged upon it by Mr. Fremantle, the Deputy-Master – namely modern and improved machinery and appliances, to enable him to meet the heavy demand for coinage which may at any period be thrown upon the Mint authorities."

Apparently the second part of the James Workman sale will include an 1876 'no-H' penny so it'll be interesting to the see the scan of it (although Bernie did suggest that it might be the result of a clogged die).

I've found in The Times archive (to which I've online access at work) is an article dated Wednesday January 10th 1883 in which a summary of the work undertaken at the Mint is given. The new machinery consisted of 3 vertical engines of maximum 250 hp power and 14 new 'Uhlhorn' lever presses turning out 90-100 coins per minute "and very few brockages". The cost was £30,000. There was also much building work to enlarge the premises. However the most relevant piece of information to this thread is: "These building operations were begun on February 1st, 1882, from which date the coinage was entirely suspended till the alterations were finished." No mention is made of any arrangements of minting coins anywhere else while the work took place.

1875H wide date now, been on for about an hour and has already reached £708: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1875H-VICTORIA-BRONZE-BUN-HEAD-PENNY-EXT-RARE-AU-/230543821240?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item35ad7b89b8

How many London Mint 1882 pennies would you say have survived (all grades)? Freeman has them as R17 (16 to 50 in existence). That was in 1985. Given their unique status, there's likely still the same number now, but most of those will be in private collections, which will probably not see the light of day for a very long time, if ever. That includes the prime example Bernie showed us a few weeks back. 16 to 50 is a fairly wide estimated range. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 40. I bet there's maybe 10 which will come up for sale in the next 3 years, say ~ and the sales points could be anywhere. Mind, most of them will be flat discs. Gouby quotes R9 for the 1882 London penny which is "2-9 possibly known". Although he doesn't say exactly how he comes by this estimate I wonder if he doesn't count the flat discs?

Overgraded as usual, he's probably bidding on it himself. He also has a 1919KN, am sure he's had this same one listed before 2 grand now! Last night the following 1869 penny with a couple of bad edge knocks on the reverse made £360 on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1869-VICTORIA-PENNY-/320605087443?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item4aa58d66d3 Currently this 'fine'(?) example is available with a Buy It Now price of £100: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1869-Penny-Victoria-Bun-Head-Rare-F-/190460654855?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item2c5856f507