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Yes, PCGS/NGC will refuse to, indeed PCGS is proud of their "sniffer" which is supposed to catch doctored coins ( http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=17156 ) and NGC/PCGS will refuse to grade artificially toned coins ( http://www.ngccoin.com/details/altered-coin-surfaces.aspx and http://www.pcgs.com/nogrades.html) The problem is that they often miss some and since they claim to refuse to grade them any that get by are immediately considered to be "natural" toning to American buyers even though its as fake as fake can get. There's also people who claim to be able to tone coins already slabbed in PCGS/NGC holders, further making them questionable. Like all TPGed coins, buy the coin and not the piece of plastic. The fact that the TPGs know it happens says it all really.

Those defending it will be those who have most to lose, the very people who doctor the coins and sell them on at vastly inflated prices----IMO

Well that's interesting. I remember quite recently seeing some Morgan dollars with toning like that and the asking prices were really high for otherwise ordinary coins. Hence the reason the americans go to great lengths to tone them, then try and Tell us that its all naturally toned. Uh huh course it is, thank god we Brits have a bit of grey matter between our ears, the American buyers of the awful coloured Coins on the other hand

NGC seem to be making a habit of mis-attribution of British coins lately

I think I can detect a slight blodge between the two eights, VS. Leading me to suspect it may have been tooled. I may be wrong of course. Hope I am, as it would be great if a forum member had a genuine 1882 non H A forum member does have an 1882 no H, he goes by the name of Bernie i believe

What in - Eddie the Optimist's price guide? £10 BU in CCGB 2010. May i draw your attention to the small fact that we're now in 2013 Peck. No womder we never see any recent purchases by you if you're bidding on Coins with outdated prices. I'm not saying it will be fantastically risen, but you need to update your Library a little, maybe Buy CCGB 2013 at the very least (scrooge)

Who's WE exactly? Just curious, are you another auction house? Cathrine put it in quotes, Dave. It's a quote directly out of London Coins catalogue, so "we" is London Coins. Would you like to introduce yourself Cathrine? You seem to collect copper/bronze and obviously have a good deal of knowledge. Nice Joseph Moore in your avatar too. Yes, i was'nt reading it correctly, i was reading it as if Catherine was herself writing and not quoting... Welcome to the nuthouse Catherine I'm sure Debbie will be happy with another female companion

Who's WE exactly? Just curious, are you another auction house?

Ok, so a new topic, and maybe shoud'nt be in a coin forum, but i'm a coinie and been a member here for quite some time and have just added to my hobbies. So now i have questions, it regards where i live, the places i want to detect, morality and loads more questions if you bother to read further. So basically i've went one step further and bought a metal detector. Its a progressive thing, being interested in coins, then came history and this bloody detector. I thought of several places to go, being in Germany (Munich) history is abound............Obviously not wishing to offend no one, please, if it does, then don't reply. My spot of interest shortly will be Dachau, this was the 1st concentration camp of the 3rd Reich and a role model used by the reigime. In 1933 Himler opened Dachau. My plan is to eventually detect the surrounding area, roughly about 5km before Dachau and it's surroundings.. I had a conversation with the boss regarding this, she's of the opinion that, old farmland has been handed down through the years, asking permission will be frowned upon. Her other opinion is that i should'nt ask farmers and others, why, well that's a long story, but if you're really up to speed so far then you might understand the rest. This basically leaves 1 other option. This is a complicated subject................It's doing my fecking head in, moralities are confusing. 1 or 2 facts i never knew about Dachau........ It was the 1st camp, and was the role model for all others... The SS took over all of Dachau and not just a part of it SS Troops were trained at Dachau North of Dachau was a small Village called Herbertshausen. There was an SS practise firing range there. 4000 Russian POWs were target practise The control Building of the firing range is now a homeless shelter. The gates had the SS ruins on them, and still have the boltholes........... OK, my worry is, i'm NEVER going to get a nod from farmers in this area. I'll add to this as i go, so much to add , opinions so far and thoughts

Yes, but everybody's different, and most people set their own personal parameters when it comes to collections. I doubt there are many who have every single example/die combination in the bunhead run. But it's their decision to what extent they go, and not up for criticism ~ any more than I would criticise you for your coin collecting/selling choices. You came across so strong in your two posts last night, that I wondered if you had some sort of vested interest in that particular coin. Did you ? No interest in Bunhead pennies what so ever. My little irk was, if you collect THAT series and refuse to point blank not collect a certain date because you know there's only worn examples, so you'll also know that there's going to be holes popping up all over. 1860 is the most popular of the Bunheads due to the various die OBVs and REVs, this makes that date alone a good series to collect, but if you're collecting just bunheads and onwards then you're going to come up against a few hurdles along the way if you don't pick up the shite and take it with you. Just because your tray looks pretty with EFs and above does'nt make it complete unless you COMPLETELY collect the series if its affordable to you. Just my thoughts, you have your own opinions

Just found this GERMANY The 1992 law on the search for, and preservation of antiquities, covers all objects belonging to the ancient period, early Christianity and the Middle Ages. Excavation requires a licence and work may not be carried out, without permission, near an antiquity in such a way as to affect it directly or indirectly. All accidental discoveries must be reported. Rewards are made equal to 50% of value if found on public land and 100% if on private land Although the 1932 Act does not refer to metal detectors, any items found by its use are covered by the Act. Sounds more like archeology though

Why do i want to detect Dachau? Well, it's obviously near to me and it has such a historical/brutal past. I was speaking with the boss about this, and as i said at the start, she believes that Dachau as a whole would rather not open up any old wounds. It has a shameful past and by all accounts its a past that Dachau as a whole would rather forget. How they'd quite manage that with a concentration camp sitting in their village is beyond me. Reading through a German detecting forum, it was apparently better NOT to ask as you're only going to get a rejection anyway. Its been said also that if there's a gate and it says "private" then you don't go, which is easy enough for me and anyone else. The other problem is finding out who actually owns the land, as we know landowners could live miles away and i'm not even sure how or who to start with. Did i mentionthe beaurocracy here, you need paperwork just for the paperwork, then it gets filed until the next chimp in the next room gets around to it. Anyhow, i said i wanted to do this correctly and it's still the same, there are woods near Dachau which i'll start off in as i'm sure those won't be owned by any one person, but while i'm around there i'll look to see if i can chat to anyone (landowner) about permission and see what occurs. I'll also have to try and find 1 or 2 others in Munich who go detecting and possibly a German detecting forum who can explain the ins and outs of detecting here.

Price was excessive though. 25 pounds is quoted for UNC, EF 4 pounds, has the makings of a shilled auction.

I agree. Despite the rarity it would look totally out of place in an otherwise mainly UNC collection. Well bugger me with a rotating cactus...............I did'nt realise there was that many 1882 no Hs out there that you had to choose from. Show me those UNCs, real interested in those, or those in worse condition, fuck, do you actually have one? Don't hold back Dave, say what you really mean! Lol, sorry, but i'm thinking, if we actually left coins sitting on the shelf because it looks ugly then no collections would ever be complete because some coins just don't get any better than shite grade. You'll be leaving a lot of blanks and be very frustrated eventually.

I' m wondering Stuart why you'd want one of these at LESS than £12-£15 delivered. You state that "from those Images you can't be sure of the coin being UNC. Thank god the seller states its "GEF with lustre" and i can read ;-)

But then, hypothetically, what would you do with any finds unearthed? I'm not Dan.........This is a little more raw than "just detecting". This is where the SS were formed, this is where the 1st Concentration camp was established" This is where 4000 Russian POWs were shot as target practise. Difference with myself and Dan is, i know what i COULD be letting myslef in for. There's also the other scenario where you find bodies who were unrecorded, which is what also happened at Dachau..........It's a very thorny issue in this household right now, bearing in mind the mother-in-law is jewish

No question about that, but at least he might be a point of contact if you needed any immediate help with WWII detecting. Its nothing to do with adding Dan etc. Its about morals for me. I know exactly where to go and exactly what to do, for me it's about nighthawking or not because i know if i ask the landowners that i will probably get turned down. Land, cash and any other wealth related activity in Germany is owned by older Germans, where has it originated is what you might want to ask..........

Unfortunately Dan is quite a preeeeeeeeeeeeeck in the detecting circles. He is on my FB list, but he'll soon be booted for being a Diva tw*t. Booting a friend of mine for disagreeing with something Dan said. In short, Dan is a wan**r wanting to be a famous diva

I agree. Despite the rarity it would look totally out of place in an otherwise mainly UNC collection. and ure UNC collection of BUNHEADS is?

I agree. Despite the rarity it would look totally out of place in an otherwise mainly UNC collection. Well bugger me with a rotating cactus...............I did'nt realise there was that many 1882 no Hs out there that you had to choose from. Show me those UNCs, real interested in those, or those in worse condition, fuck, do you actually have one?

Rob......oh and hopefully that 1893 6d is'nt one of those fakes :-)

13.5% in total for both eBay and paypal

Ok, slow down and hold up. Things are running away with themselves. Firstly, do you want to sell the coin? If you do you stated that you've had persons asking how much, so how many people did you email? Are all fremch coinage experts? If so, play them against each other IF you want to sell. Ask THEM what they're prepared to pay and not what you want, you may get a large Variable in price if you have 3 Potential buyers. Take things slower and don't rush, you may eventually rue the day

Krause has 3 Books for seperate years. Failing that, try Pam West, no Relation to Fred

This has gotta be a joke 76 bids, lol, Lucky to get 2 bids 170989700562