RLC35

Here is something I picked up today at a coin show. It is a 1861 Half Penny, with what appears to be a upside down "F" in the word "Penny." It is not a broken "E", sice you can see from the close up, it never had the tope horizontal bar! Has anyone ever seen one like this? Too bad it isn't a better example. A second pic will follow.

It can't be an upside down F. The horizontal parts would be on the other side of the vertical if it were. Right Nick. It is a mirror image of a F...not a F itself. I don't know how it could come about though, because it appears that there never was a horizontal line at the top, which it would take to would make it an E.

Here is second pic...

Sorry...didn't attach pic!

In 1944 to 1946, here in the United States, our government used shell cases to make small cents... they also acknowledged it. There was no streaking of the metal however, like the pennies you show, but the small cents were a slightly different color. Those coins were otherwise satisfactory, except for the slightly different color (hardly noticeable)

Peter, That is a great idea. I just bought a CGS AU 1868 Penny, I might just break it out and submit to NGC at the Chicago International Coin Fair, on April 18th, and see what it comes back as. Obviously there will be about a month's wait time for completion.

Oh dear, that table didn't come out too well did it. Try again !!! 100 FDC MS70 99 FDC MS70 98 FDC MS70 97 FDC MS70 96 FDC MS69 95 FDC MS68 - 69 94 AFDC MS68 93 AFDC MS67 - 68 92 AFDC MS67 91 AFDC MS66 - 67 90 NFDC MS66 88 BU - NFDC MS65 - 66 85 Choice UNC - BU MS65 82 Choice UNC MS64 - 65 80 UNC MS63 - 64 78 UNC MS63 - 64 75 UNC or near so MS62 - 63 70 AU MS60 - 61 65 GEF MS60 - 61 60 EF AU58 - MS60 55 NEF AU55 50 GVF AU55 45 GVF AU53 40 VF AU50 35 NVF EF45 30 GF EF40 25 GF F35 20 F F30 15 NF 10 VG 8 VG 5 Good 4 Fair 3 2 1 Sorry, still a bit wonky, but at least readable, just !!! I think the comparison is too heavily tilted in favor of the UK 100 scale, especially in the lower grades. Without going through the whole list, I think the following is a better comparison of grades. UK Fine20 = US F12 GF30 = VF20 EF60 = AU50 At the grade of "Fine" both scales are very close to the same (I think). The biggest variances, are above that grade. IMHO! Ha,Ha. This is going to make a for some interesting conversation. LOL!

Actually I'm not. Not sure lower grade is really their thing. Probably said this before but I've certainly seen one of theirs graded F which really should have struggled to make Fair. Could have been an aberration, but unlikely as it was hen's teeth rare. In this case I'd give it NF but could change in hand. A good £69 worth - that definitely doesn't suck! I concur with your assessment of Fair+ Peck (obv better, reverse only Fair), but at £69 you stole it! I am old school when it comes to this issue and find it hard to reconcile F, GF and NVF (which most dealers and auctioneers would grade it) with a coin exhibiting so much wear. I think W&W back then were more realistic in their grading, and (if memory serves) didn't rate it even Fine. But prices have certainly gone up dramatically since then! But it wasn't as much of a steal as my 1903, which I bought from a US dealer for the princely sum of £26 !!!! Ah, the good old days Ebay used to have loads of nice bits on across the pond at very reasonable prices too. Sadly our cousins have caught up in the pricing game This was the 1990s (pre-eBay) but still one hell of a steal when you see it... It actually looks better than that in hand - there's lots of lustre on the reverse, which tends to disguise what appears to be heavy wear to the shield edges and is not so noticeable really. These days it would probably grade VF so £26 in 1999 really was a steal. When I saw it on the dealer's list for that price, I thought it was going to be a pig, but you should have seen my face when I opened the package! I was selling A/Fair 1904's at the time for £12, so you get some idea of the context. SOOOO glad I have stopped collecting dates and 'micro' varieties! For me the added spark of a rare date didn't/doesn't give the same buzz as a new type, and I can't do both! Btw I have a few boring old rare varieties and dates I will be listing on the Bay soon! Paulus, What is your eBay ID? I would like to take a look at what you are offering. PM me if you don't want to state it in a post.

I just found this coin with an unusual "8" in the date. It is a 1876H Half Penny, and has what appears to be a double 8 in the date. Has anyone else got one, or ever seen one?

Peter, You are correct about the detecting of old coins. In fact, one of the members of the Muncie Coin Club, sponsors two (2) trips per year, with about 10 people each trip, and goes detecting for those coins you mention. They go 50-60 miles south of London, but I am not sure exactly where. They always find a lot of coins, though some are common. The only thing they don't like about the trip, is having to turn the coins over to the antiqities people for evaluation. It takes them 6 months to a year to get them back! Ha,Ha. That'll be France then! Nick I got a better idea of the location from my friend, about the detecting area, it was 18 miles East of Winchester! He also said he ran one of his tour groups with the Colchester Group, and was less than satisfied. He said they didn't find any coins! That was the only time he had his group book through Colchester.

Maybe it was West of London! Ha,Ha!

Peter, You are correct about the detecting of old coins. In fact, one of the members of the Muncie Coin Club, sponsors two (2) trips per year, with about 10 people each trip, and goes detecting for those coins you mention. They go 50-60 miles south of London, but I am not sure exactly where. They always find a lot of coins, though some are common. The only thing they don't like about the trip, is having to turn the coins over to the antiqities people for evaluation. It takes them 6 months to a year to get them back! Ha,Ha.

Ski, Most local (city, County) Coin Clubs, here in the U.S. have a annual show with from 40 to 80 dealers present. State Shows (Indiana for example) are from 100 dealers, and up. Larger shows, like Florida United Numismatic (FUN),National Money Show, American Numismatic Assn. (ANA), Central States (CSNS), etc. are usually 250 to 500 Dealers, and up. Coin collecting is a big deal here in the United States. I belong to 4 Coin Clubs here in Indiana. The Muncie Coin Club, being the largest, with about 250 members. The Muncie Club has a active meeting attendence of usually 75 to 100 members, and always has a auction on meeting night of about 100 to 120 lots.

I have a warm feeling (get it?). If a UK coin is so special it needs a spectoscopy test I would recommend sending it to the Royal Mint as they apparently have some wonderful devices for checking coins (like telling me my 1933 bronze penny was a forgery.....). NGC (and PCGS) accept coins at coin shows and encapsulate them at the event and I am pretty sure they do not take their serious equipment to these events when they do so. If CGS had enough coins being submitted and thus a clearer revenue stream I am sure they would consider any and all devices to improve their (in my opinion) great service. I will make sure I pass the idea on at the next CGS Forum meeting. Bill, NGC and PCGS do grade, and encapsule coins, at some of the larger coins shows. However, they only do that with U.S. Coins. I have never seen them accept "Foreign" coins at those shows, for on-site grading and encapsulation.

Is that clashing or ghosting? I have a 1799 halfpenny with similar effect: There appears to be a mirror image of the olive branch below Britannia's outstretched arm, but I believe it's ghosting from the obverse. It may be on yours, Peck. I'm not an expert on these things. But I'm tending to think mine is a genuine die clash. Interestingly, if you look at the same coin in hand, there is considerable evidence of actual ghosting on the reverse, in the same way you see it on many George V pennies and other coins. Victoria's bun can clearly be seen, although this more "traditional" ghosting can't be seen on the pic. It is a die clash. On the obverse you can see Britannia's knees impressed under the Queens chin, and on the reverse you can see the Queens profile to the right of the trident.

That is definately a F-30. You can see part of the 8 inside the oval center of the 6, and also see the top left "rounded" part of the 8, just peeking out from the upper left extension of the 6.

Gary, I once owned a 1861, 8 over 8, and 6 over 6 (on the same 1861 Half Penny), just like yours. I didn't keep a pic of it however. I sold it on my website!

Bob, as an American, how do you compare the relative qualities of NGC and CGS ? Do you have experience of both ? Michael, I have a lot of NGC graded coins (and some PCGS and ANAC's), and I think NGC does a good job on U.S. Coins. Coins of Great Britain are another matter, since the grading is not based on a UK system of grading...in fact I am not sure what they use as a grading guide for UK coins. On the other hand, I think CGS does a good job, as far as I have seen, on British coins. The real comparison of coin grading for CGS would be how do they grade U.S. Coins. Would they make the same mistakes on U.S. coins that NGC and others make on UK coins? I don't know, as I have never seen a U. S. Coin graded thus far, by CGS. That would be a good one to check out. What it all boils down to with the two grading systems is, we are not comparing apples to apples...instead apples to oranges!....

Gary, Here is my 1861, 6 over 6. Not nearly as nice as yours, but definable. It would be easy to see how this could be mistaken for a 6 over 8, if you couldn't see the upper arm of the 2nd 6.

What I do know is they are now on the CGS site with pictures so anyone registered to the site can compare them against their own coins. The above note from Bill Pugsley is very true. The addition of the individual variety listing of coins on the CGS site is a real plus. It is one of the reasons I signed on to the site. The only negative I see is that each individual coin variety is listed as 1961-1, 1961-2, etc, and you have to go through all the 1961's to see the one you are looking for. It would be better to add a designation...(1961, far-1) etc to signify the coin being shown. Still, I really like that part of the site. I currently only have a few CGS slabbed coins, but am looking at adding some of my scarce pennies to CGS, for slabbing.

I have one Gary, though not as good a example as yours. I'll try to find a pic of it.

It's subtle - but look at the rim, perfect and even, and the teeth and linear circle, ditto. It also has that 'chocolate brown' appearance that bronzed proofs so often have (and will have been there from the start, i.e. never lustred). The detail is crisp, though some currency UNCs will also be. I agree entirely with Peck's assessment. It's very similar to my own 1868 proof, which is in copper. I'd like the bronze one too, but the asking price is a bit steep... more like the price for something slabbed at PF65! Here's mine: Beautiful Proof Penny Accumulator, and a Rarity of ER!Cool!

Probably not unique - here's one on eBay with a BIN of £25. The coin on eBay is a regular New Zealand 1/2 penny, but it is struck on a "thin" planchet.

I believe that the usual cause for these second-chance scams is the real seller's eBay account has become compromised (probably via spyware of some sort) and therefore the scammers have full access to the seller's details of past buyers. You could well be correct Nick. I've spent the last hour talking to eBay and in the end, all they do is insist that they have a Privacy Policy that they would never ever breach. It's like talking to a brick wall. No recognition that, say, a rogue employee could be handing names out perhaps. Anytime you get any "offer", "Discount", etc in an email from eBay, it is best to stop, and look on eBay, at your official eBay mail. If it is a valid offer (2nd Chance, etc), it will be on the official eBay mail site. If it is not on the eBay site...it is a scam!

Agree, here's mine again David, That is the best example I've ever seen! Mine is not nearly as good.