Accumulator

Richard, you've been hacked…. someone's using your account to show copper coins!

Reverse A (on the left) & B (on the right). As Peck says, very different rims/teeth and, as Gary points out, the '1' of 1913 is differently aligned:

Obverse 1 (on the left) & 2 (on the right). 'I' of IND to a tooth or gap.

Hi, and welcome. I prefer to think of myself as a fairly well informed enthusiast, rather than an expert! Nevertheless, I'm sorry to advise that your coin is die combination 6 + G (i.e. a Freeman 33). As I'm sure you're aware, the 5 + G combination is very rare. The easiest way to determine that your coin is obverse 6 is by the gap between the top of the head and the rim. For obverse 6 this is noticeably smaller. Here's obverse 5 (on the left) and obverse 6 (on the right), for comparison:

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Same here, David. I found an F175 amongst thousands of circulation coins but never put it in my collection or on the website, being sure an EF/UNC example would appear shortly. That was several years ago and, although I don't have time to check every 1913 listed on eBay, I've never seen a decent one since! I've come to the conclusion that they're really quite rare. David Groom lists the four types in his book but doesn't discuss relative rarities. I wonder if he has a view on this? Personnally I think the F175 is harder to find in any grade than the F176. I picked up a nice F175 in the summer and was thinking of getting my worn one slabbed as there are currently none on CGS. What put me off is that the slabbing would likely cost more than the coin is worth. Here's my F175 I'd be quite happy with that example, Gary!

The photos work for me if I right click and choose the option to open in another window.

Same here, David. I found an F175 amongst thousands of circulation coins but never put it in my collection or on the website, being sure an EF/UNC example would appear shortly. That was several years ago and, although I don't have time to check every 1913 listed on eBay, I've never seen a decent one since! I've come to the conclusion that they're really quite rare.David Groom lists the four types in his book but doesn't discuss relative rarities. I wonder if he has a view on this?

I'd be interested to see photos of your F176 prior to grading, Gary (and also photos of the example you're keeping). I believe they're a lot rarer than Freeman suggests (Rarity 'R' in his book). For comparison, here's mine, with the typically weak beaded border, which was bought from LC in 2012 for £150:

Be interesting to watch this one from the sidelines...

Fascinating, Rob. Sounds like Spink need to find a postgraduate mathematician looking to do a thesis on predictive analytics and regression techniques applicable to the study of numismatic valuation! They should be able to keep them very busy!

Haha, I wondered how long it would take for the great 'Scottish' actor Mel Gibson to make an appearance! Of course you could have called on that other famous Scottish actor, Sean Connery, but he wouldn't want to give up his tax-exile status by setting foot in the bonnie land!

If Scotland were to become a member of the EU automatically then I'd agree with you. However, if Barosso is right and Scotland's accession were delayed by the average of around 8 years or so, or didn't manage to gain access for some reasons, then the border between Scotland and England would become a border between the EU and the rest of the world. That would surely bring all the controls associated with an international border i.e. border controls, customs etc. Maybe, but we'll all know where to go for our duty-free whisky! You'll need a Visa AC Visa cost: 6,000 McPooonds…. Or about 20p in English money.

If Scotland were to become a member of the EU automatically then I'd agree with you. However, if Barosso is right and Scotland's accession were delayed by the average of around 8 years or so, or didn't manage to gain access for some reasons, then the border between Scotland and England would become a border between the EU and the rest of the world. That would surely bring all the controls associated with an international border i.e. border controls, customs etc. Maybe, but we'll all know where to go for our duty-free whisky!

That reminds me of a brief time back in the 80's I spent in Texas. The guy I was working with took me for a drive through a predominantly Mexican area. Row upon row of poor, run down housing stock but with latest Cadillac or Buick parked proudly outside! I guess we all choose our priorities. Some might spend more on coins than their house!

I know Elmbridge and the surrounding areas of Surrey well, having been born bought up there. In my youth there were some very wealthy pockets (St George's Hill, comes to mind) but nothing like the concentration of money that's there now. I often return to visit family and it's not just the huge houses with swimming pools in gated estates, but the cars and the private schools and the high end shops and expensive eateries…. and the list goes on. These generally aren't people struggling with unmanageable mortgages or high LTV ratios. It seems they're paying their fair share of tax too, which of course is only right.

I'm with you there Dave, but for me it's the Tory b******s in the Home Counties who should declare independence and leave the rest of the UK to everyone else including the Scots. Your part of the UK would be a bit short of income if they did. Elmbridge in Surrey (£1.18bn) alone pays more income tax than Glasgow (£898m), Sheffield (£812m), Aberdeen (£728m), Cardiff (£589m) and Newcastle (£443m). Elmbridge in Surrey may have more population, Scotland has a mere 5 million population. The same said elmbridge may have many rich residents compared to the millionaires that reside in Scotland. Bear in mind how much Scotland pays in oil tax. If this was taken into account and it did'nt head into the Westminster coffers then we'd probably be paying more than the UK put together.AC, i mean we as i'm Scottish, whether i can or cannot vote. Being able to vote or not does not determine who i am. oOh and if we combined Aberdeen and Glasgow the combined tax would be more than Elmbridge. 1.6 Billion or so. Wonder how mamy people live in Elmbridge Surrey who work as Stockbrokers or Play Professional Football or who own 1 million pound plus houses. Lets keep it into perspective I thought all the Scottish millionaires live in Germany these days, Dave?

Jokes aside, I have to say there's some breathtaking opinions being expressed here against those, who purely by dint of geography and birth, happen to be from the south-east of this country.

'We'? Surely you don't get a vote Dave?

I completely agree. Was being slightly tongue in cheek.

Yes, I do like it! It just took a while for the penny to drop, and for me to calculate that one hammered Spink ref can cover 50+ varieties of one coin and numerous mint marks, common and rare alike!Rare mint mark of same S number sells £500 Common mint mark of same S number sells £140 Ref guide so far = £320 Simples! Edit: moral of the story is don't expect to get £320 for your common mint mark, just because the Spink's guide values it 'group' as such! That doesn't sound right, Stuart. Surely a rarity weighting needs to be included in the algorithm? Here's a puzzle for the weekend: If there are two varieties of a coin and the rarer, worth £100, appears 1/10 of the time, while the more common, worth £10, appears 9/10 of the time, show that the weighted average value is £19. :-) Shouldn't this be the Spink value?

I'm neutral and really don't mind, but as I read it, Salmon now finds himself between an irresistible force and an immovable object. The outcome of which cannot be in his favour.

Now that is a truly beautiful example!

That really would be just about impossible for any of us!

It seems clear to me that the coin on the right is the sharper, better strike. The one on the left has lovelier tone certainly, but less detail. Thank you Peckris. Then you'll be surprised to know that the coin on the left is graded CGS 82 and estimated at £400-600. The one on the right is graded CGS 78 and estimated at £200-250 Edit: (and Paulus)