RobJ

I thought that I would start a seperate Thread on this subject, if that is OK, to try to obtain some further information about this coin. Basically, I managed to obtain an unusual coin in my change yestersday. It is an 1839 Victoria 'Young Head' Groat. An unusual find in my change I would agree! However, the most unusual thing about this coin is that it has an 'Inverted' (UP/UP) Die Axis as opposed to the 'Usual' (UP/DOWN) Die Axis used at the time of Issue. After looking through my copy of 'Spink,' browsing the Internet and discussing it with another Forum Member, the only reference that I could find concerning an 1839 Groat with an 'Inverted' Die axis is that there were two Proof Issues struck in 1839. One of them has the 'Usual' Die Axis and the other has the 'Inverted' Die Axis. The latter coin is the 'rarer variety' of the two Issues. Also, as they are both Proof Issues they both have a Plain Edge, Where as the coin that I obtained has a Milled Edge. I really am at a loss as to why this coin would be struck with an 'Inverted' Die Axis rather than the 'Usual' Die Axis which should have been present on other Circulating coins. Perhaps it is a previously unknown variation? I'm really not sure. So I thought that I would throw this topic open to see what you all think. Any thoughts, opinions or comments are welcome.

Consider it yours Scott. It is not a perfect example as it has been circulated and does have a few scratches but otherwise I would think it would be aUNC. I don't expect any payment for it as I only paid £1 for it. If however you do feel that it does have some monetary value, simply pop whatever you may think that its worth into a Charity Box, as I would much rather they benefit than myself. The choice is of course yours. If you could E-Mail or PM me then we can get the details sorted out.

I think that I would have noticed it Declan, it would have appeared out of the ordinary to me, due to the fact that it is a quite small and thin coin. It was also VERY dirty. (So much so that I was unable to tell that it was a Groat until I gave it a little wash.) However, I'm not sure if I would have taken that much notice and went to the trouble of washing it. I think thay I may have put it aside out of sheer curiosity or perhaps just have put it back into circulation. This is perhaps the reason why I think that it may not have been noticed to any degree before, perhaps people just thought that it was a dirty Foreign Coin and just wanted to pass it off as soon as they could? Who knows? The Universe is indeed a strange and wonderful place. It never ceases to amaze me the things that can happen and the way that things can end up or turn out. I think that I may start a seperate Thread about this coin, as I'm not sure if all Forum Members would read this Thread as they may not have an interest in its original subject matter. That way perhaps someone may be able to shed some light on it.

That is not a problem at all 1949. I thought that I would ask you on the off chance that you may be interested, as I wasn't sure if you collected Commemorative 50p Coins or not. Well Scott, you are more than welcome to it if you are interested?

It certainly is all very confusing isn't it? lol I do think that the most fascinating thing is how on earth did it end up in my pocket? If you think about it, it is over 170 years old! I can't help myself from wondering about the journey that it has taken to travel from then to my pocket. lol I'm not even sure where it came from. All that I know for certain is that I obtained it in my change in the last couple of days, as that was the last time that I had a good look through the coins in my pocket and it definitely wasn't there then. This just confirms to me that it is a really worth while activity to 'Check Your Change.' lol

I have just had a search on the Internet to see if I could find out any further information about this curious little coin. The only reference that I could find about an 1839 Groat with an 'Inverted' Die Axis was the 1839 Proof Issue. There were two versions of this coin, one with a 'Normal' Die Axis and the other with an 'Inverted' Die Axis. The latter is apparantly rather rare. I just can't fathom why a standard circulation coin would have an 'Inverted' Die Axis. Perhaps it may be mentioned in a specialist Silver publication, 'ESC' or something similar?

It has a Milled Edge Sylvester. I had a look in my copy of 'Spink' and the only mention of an UP/UP Die Axis is for a 1839 Proof Coin. But if it has a Milled Edge as opposed to a Plain Edge it can't be a Proof? So I have no idea either why the OBV/REV is UP/UP as opposed to UP/DOWN as it is for the other coins. Perhaps a First Issue? Or part of a Set? Or maybe just a mix up at the Royal Mint? lol

Ah, OK. That is what I thought that you meant Scott. lol

I've just found something in my change that you don't see everday. An 1839 Fourpence! lol It must have been given to me as a 5p Coin, although I'm not sure how it wasn't noticed as it is slightly smaller and a lot thinner than a 5p Coin. Saying that it was VERY dirty until I gently gave it a little wash in warm soapy water. The interesting thing is, both the OBV and REV are both facing the same way. I was under the impression that until the 1887 'Jubilee Head' Issues that with Silver Coins the OBV and REV were opposite? Any thoughts?

A 1992 'Single Market' 50p Coin Scott?

Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say Peckris. Albeit in a rather long winded 'Around The Houses' way. lol

That is excellent Dave! lol Thanks for sharing the picture.

It sounds like you both have been well and truly bitten by the bug. Welcome to the club! lol

This is not my area of interest, but I found this quote from the first link that you posted to be most fascinating. "The purpose of these coins was to show off the engraving expertise of the firm and act as advertising for their business, for sale as toys for children and for dolls houses, for educational and teaching purposes and as specific promotional items for other businesses." Excellent stuff! Thanks for the information Chingford.

I think that you may be right Ski! lol It's great fun isn't it? I also think that it is quite addictive, and once you start, you just can't stop! You will know what I mean when you start asking your friends and relatives to 'Check Their Change.' lol

That is a very interesting scenario that you propose there Peckris. OK, I would like to start by explaining what I meant when I said that I personally could not do that and try to explain the reason why. For me, it is the people that put up for Auction a coin on E-Bay, for example, in light of the '20p Mule' situation, a '2008 20p With NO Date On The Front' knowing very well that the date is in fact on the REV, to simply make a profit out of someone. To me that is profiteering. If however, someone were to put up for Auction on E-Bay the same item and it happend to make a profit by people simply bidding on it. To me that is making a profit. I don't think that I'm naive enough to not be able to realise that this does not happen, it does, on a daily basis, and not only on E-Bay but in many different situations. I'm also not here to argue the issue of morality or the rights or wrongs of someone choosing to do that, as it is their business not mine and I would not judge them for doing so, I also believe that I have no place in doing that. It is just that I personally could not do that. As for the scenario that you gave with myself being an impoverished child being lucky enough to obtain another example of a 1926 ME Penny from my change. Would it be wrong of me to sell the poorer example to earn some money to help myself with my impoverished situation? I'm not sure, but I think that I would have to say no, I probably would sell it if I were that impoverished and needed the money that desperately. The reason being, as I stated, that I would not out to make a profit for profits sake out of someone elses misfortune but instead to help myself with my impoverished situation, If I were to sell it and it happend that I made a profit from doing so, then that would different to me than knowingly selling something with the intention of making a profit out of someone. I hope that has explained things a little more clearly for you.

You have done well in managing to obtain those from your change Ski.

As a youngster, I remember spending a 1977 Jubilee Coin. The Shopkeeper had no problem in accepting it. I bought a 25p 'Mix Up' with it lol

That is an interesting thought Ski. lol

Indeed. Good Luck!

I did not and have not implied in any way, shape or form that you sold your example for a 'Quick Sale' Chris. I think that if you started your Auction at 99p and the final amount reached was £255 and both yourself and the person who purchased the coin are happy with the price that is paid, then that is the business of yourself and the purchaser. It is not my place to judge or question, and I never would. I do, however, like anyone using a Public Forum, have the right to comment and express personal opinions on any topic Posted. Just as anyone has the right to comment or express personal opinions on anything that I have Posted, or may indeed Post in the future. I did not intend anything that I said to be referred to you or by you personaly. If any offence was taken, it was not implied or intended. I offer my apologies if it were.

I agree with you Declan. I really would not feel at all comfortable selling one of those coins on E-Bay or elsewhere. To me personally, it is little more than profiteering. The same applies to me for the '20p Mule' as well. I am fortunate enough to have obtained one from my change. However, I could never personally sell it for a grossly over inflated price simply to gain profit. I personally think that if you were to purchase, for example, a Sovereign, and over a period of time the coin appreciated in its value and at the time that it was sold a profit was realised, then that is the order of things. However, to simply profit from a 'Quick Sale' of the type mentioned here, would leave not only a very bad tase in my mouth, but it would not bode well on my conscience either. Not at all well. I would never judge anyone for doing so. It is simply a personal point of view.

lol. That is excellent! Is there any chance of you uploading a picture Dave?

That is a very fair point of view David. It is also one that I personally share. Even though it is Legal Tender, if it is not used in every day transactions then it doesn't qualify as a coin. As I said, I asked out of curiosity to try to find out what peoples definitions were on what makes a coin

lol If I'm honest I would never pay that amount for a 5p Coin. Rarity or not. If I were to find one in my change then that would be a different matter, it could go with my other Decimal Coins in my collection, but I would never personally purchase one.