seuk

Thanks - I think there's a possibility some day to find out who engraved at least some of the counterfeit dies. Which is not the same as knowing who the actual counterfeiter was. That may prove impossible for the individual dies except for a few rare cases such as the Ingley counterfeit. However knowing the engraver would be a most important part of the whole picture! A book - that will probably have to wait another ten years or so, unless I get wealthy

Letter punches side by side: The E punches are especially revealing since there's a tiny damage to the bottom bar

"On Saturday last, Mr. Payn, attended by several assistants, entered the premises of Samuel and James Ingley, situated in the Lower Priory, in Birmingham, and found them at work stamping the blanks of three shilling pieces, a great number of which were in a state ready for circulation. They are very well executed, ring well and shrill, and are of the date of 1811. The offenders were secured and lodged in prison, with a large quantity of blanks and finished pieces, and on Monday they were brought up for examination and committed to the county gaol" Leicester Journal. 29 July 1814* Normally this would be just another report from the heydays of counterfeiting under George III. However in 1980 Antony Gunstone** descriped two counterfeits from the collection of the Birmingham City Museum. A finished coin punched: S. INGLEY'S COUNTERFEIT and a blank punched: A COUNTERFEIT BLANK. / OF / S. AND S. J. INGLEY'S, / (rosette) WHO WERE TRIED AT / WARWICK ASSIZES, 1814: / AND TRANSPORTED. / FOR 14 YEARS. / (rosette) Of course I was very excited to find out if I had one of these counterfeits in my collection. And I had! This counterfeit is of a unique type having very large lettering. So far I've seen two out of 37 counterfeit coins, both from the same dies which are also the same dies as used for the example in Birmingham City Museum. Although my material is of little statistic significance it seems likely that the Ingley production was done on a fairly small scale, perhaps only involving one pair of dies. The counterfeit of the famous coiner William Booth also included the 3 shillings Bank Token of 1811. A hoard of counterfeit 1s. 6d. Bank Tokens found in 1956 at Perry Barr, Birmingham could be a key to identify some of Booths production. I've yet to see a photo of these coins of which a few should be in the Birmingham City Museum. (Curiously two of Booths servants were Richard and Dorothy Ingley who may have been related to Samuel and James***.) *) R.A. Rutland: Counterfeit British Currency 1811-17: A Leicester Viewpoint. - Seaby's Coin & Medal Bulletin No. 744, Aug. 1980 **) Antony Gunstone: Counterfeit Bank of England Tokens. - Spink's Numismatic Circular, Vol.88, No. 12, Dec. 1980 ***)John Powell: The Birmingham Coiners 1770-1816 - History Today, Vol. 43, July 1993

Transportation seems to be the norm in most cases but I'm not sure on the statistics. Anyway the last hanging was in 1829 and forgery were reclassified as non capital in 1836.

Two more Ingley's - they're getting common...

I though a great deal about the numbering system before numbering the coins - in the hope not having to renumbering them all at a later time. I may still have to renumber some of the coins when I get deeper into the study and that's a lot of boring work. The system is - first a letter naming the group which should be equal to the engraver. Hence the problem of renumbering if I find out that more groups are simply the result of a change in punches used by the same engraver. I may still choose to keep the groups seperated if it make sence and perhaps only rearrange it a bit... 1st digit is for the year on the coin 6 = 1816 (that do cause the renumbering problem when found that a reverse have been use at an earlier date) Next two digits are the number assigned to the individual die in the hope that no engraver have made more than 99 dies of any given year Finally and o or r for oberse / reverse

Yes - my own system

That's a coincidence - this one is B605o_B607r. The last one was B605o_B608r. That is same obverse, different reverse.

An upgrade of the perhaps most common variation of the Walsall tokens issued by Joseph Parker. The reverse besides being week (slightly sunken die), shows a striking similarity to the tokens issued by the Bank of England. Clearly more than a coincidence since the die-sinker had an extra income engraving counterfeit dies...

Thanks for thinking of me (didn't receive your note Peter?) It's B605o_B608r in my system. The obverse is better than my own example but the price is a bit high for a shilling counterfeit so I may pass it.

Gaming tokens are not really my field though I try to get scans of the ones from 1800-1830 though most of the spade guineas are either older or later. For anyone interested in the area there's an updated version out of the A Thousand Guineas cataloge

Think you'll find most of them shown here...: http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?thumbsonly=0&perpage=90&cat=523&ppuser=&thumbcheck=0&page=1&sortby=&sorttime=&way=&date=

Lead or pewter are often used for casting counterfeits (garden shed effort).

My first 1817 Chinese fake. Low quality cast at 12.8 gr / 32.3 mm. for some reason most fakes are of the 1818 date. Likely because that was the year on the genuine coin used in the first place.

Yes - it's fake like the 'Italien' one. Both seems to be of the high quality sort. You will probably find that its has coin alignment (reverse turned 180 degrees to the obverse) whereas the genuine coins has medal alignment (0 degrees).

Looks like a cast pewter medal with some remaining white metal on the surface. I guess these are cheap contemporary copies of original medals.

My interest is in the contemporary counterfeits which are mostly milled from engraved dies hence more or less different from the original design. So my homepage will be of little value in regard to modern cast forgeries which these seems to be. Cast forgeries are likely to exist of every coin of value and will be difficult if not impossible to spot from an auction picture alone.

No - its the very same.

Just bought this example from Simmons Gallery on ebay descriped as an advertising halfpenny token. 28.3 mm 8.0 gr

Seems more fakes has started to surface: 1 2 And a 3rd one - cancelled for some reason: 3

Interesting. Does look like a William IV bust. Weight and diameter? Could be either an advertising counter or token. Perhaps you can find more information here.

And a French counterfeit which only cost me about €9 shipping included

I thought you were going to say you got this from Warwick & Warwick! No - but it's Danish found ... in my drawer

They comes as contemporary counterfeit also

Christ! Were they making these back then? In that case the Royal Mint was a few hundred years too late getting its own version to market - but then institutions are always reluctant to change. I hope Seuk is going to reappraise the dates of his forgeries. Well - at least it now seems possible for me to get rid of my ever increasing bag of unidentified washers ...like saxbys-coins selling cheap Hungarian coins etc. as British found